From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id d25805e7 for ; Tue, 25 Jun 2019 04:18:23 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 42ED09BD7B; Tue, 25 Jun 2019 14:18:22 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4F359BC44; Tue, 25 Jun 2019 14:18:09 +1000 (AEST) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 3375A9BC44; Tue, 25 Jun 2019 14:18:07 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mcvoy.com (mcvoy.com [192.169.23.250]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BC8289BC43 for ; Tue, 25 Jun 2019 14:18:06 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mcvoy.com (Postfix, from userid 3546) id 74C1435E13F; Mon, 24 Jun 2019 21:18:06 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 21:18:06 -0700 From: Larry McVoy To: Larry McVoy , Theodore Ts'o , "tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org" Message-ID: <20190625041806.GL7655@mcvoy.com> References: <8D0B5B0D-9956-47D7-8D36-1729BB1E1DA9@eschatologist.net> <5df8c6f6-2768-4bfb-9c47-3345098078a7@PU1APC01FT048.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com> <20190625000630.GA7655@mcvoy.com> <20190625003120.GA28608@mit.edu> <20190625004523.GB7655@mcvoy.com> <20190625005528.GA11929@wopr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20190625005528.GA11929@wopr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) Subject: Re: [TUHS] CMU Mach sources? X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" On Mon, Jun 24, 2019 at 05:55:28PM -0700, Kurt H Maier wrote: > On Mon, Jun 24, 2019 at 05:45:23PM -0700, Larry McVoy wrote: > > > > Like I said, I can point anyone at code I wrote as a grad student that > > while I'm not proud of the style, it has style and it is clean. Just > > because you are a grad student that doesn't excuse messy code. If you > > write messy code then you're a bad hire. > > > > This is akin to complaining about laborers not polishing railroad spikes > before hammering them into the sleepers. It's hard enough to find > people willing to touch computers at all for grad-student "wages," much > less ones both capable & willing to be held to production-code standards > on budgets that barely put food on the table, one fiscal year at a time. It is not about wages, when I was a grad student I got $16K and had to pay tuition and rent and everything else out of that. It's not about money. It's about caring about your craft. I cared, the people I have worked with in industry cared, if they didn't I left. The point I was trying to make was that you can be a student and still be a pro. Or not. The pros care about their craft. The Mach people, in my you-get-what-you-paid-for opinion, were not pros. They got a lot done in a sloppy way and they left a mess. I don't know how to say it more clearly, there are plenty examples of students that wrote clean code. Mach was cool, clean code it was not.