From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 626d4d8a for ; Wed, 26 Jun 2019 17:45:01 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id DB57C9BF7D; Thu, 27 Jun 2019 03:44:59 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16C699BD9D; Thu, 27 Jun 2019 03:44:33 +1000 (AEST) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 3B41B9BD84; Thu, 27 Jun 2019 03:44:32 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mcvoy.com (mcvoy.com [192.169.23.250]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CFCD89BC77 for ; Thu, 27 Jun 2019 03:44:31 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mcvoy.com (Postfix, from userid 3546) id 35CF235E13F; Wed, 26 Jun 2019 10:44:31 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2019 10:44:31 -0700 From: Larry McVoy To: Theodore Ts'o Message-ID: <20190626174431.GT925@mcvoy.com> References: <5df8c6f6-2768-4bfb-9c47-3345098078a7@PU1APC01FT048.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com> <20190625000630.GA7655@mcvoy.com> <20190625003120.GA28608@mit.edu> <20190625004523.GB7655@mcvoy.com> <20190626024503.GA43970@wopr> <20190626025646.GR925@mcvoy.com> <20190626151143.GC3116@mit.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20190626151143.GC3116@mit.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) Subject: Re: [TUHS] CMU Mach sources? X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" On Wed, Jun 26, 2019 at 11:11:43AM -0400, Theodore Ts'o wrote: > Unfortunately, I have to disagree with Larry, there are many, many > engineers who works because they get a paycheck, and so they go home > at 5pm. Some people might be free to improve their code on their own > time, or late at night, but corporation also preach "work/life > balance" --- and then don't fund time for making code long-term > maintainable or reducing tech debt. Yeah, I was talking about 25-30 years ago. And even then there were people who were there for the paycheck. But the people I considered my peers were people who cared deeply about doing work well. The motivation was that we were at Sun, everyone wanted a Sun workstation, which made it all the more important that we did stuff right. If you need any proof, look no further than me. I was the guy who was so happy to be at Sun, I walked around for 3 years saying "I'd do this job for free if I had enough money" :) I think that feeling still exists but it is much harder to find these days, systems work seems to have dried up, kids think a server is a VM, it's a strange world. > There is a similar related issue around publishing papers to document > great ideas. This takes time away from product development, and it > used to be that Sun was really prolific at documenting their technical > innovations at conferences like Usenix. Over time, the academic > traditions started dying off, and managers who came from that > tradition moved on, retired, or got promoted beyond the point where > they could encourage engineers to do that work. And it wasn't just at > Sun; I was working at IBM when IBM decided to take away the (de > minimus) bonus for publishing papers at conferences. Huh, I didn't know IBM gave bonuses for papers, Sun never did. I don't remember, but they may have paid for us to go to a conference. > But at the > Usenix board, I remember looking at a chart of the declining number of > ATC papers coming from industry over time. And it was very depressing... Tell me about it. Systems work just isn't what it once was.