From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 09e1c832 for ; Wed, 28 Aug 2019 17:25:12 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id BAE6E9BCD7; Thu, 29 Aug 2019 03:25:10 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3B329BCD5; Thu, 29 Aug 2019 03:24:54 +1000 (AEST) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 235429BCD5; Thu, 29 Aug 2019 03:24:52 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mcvoy.com (mcvoy.com [192.169.23.250]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 95CD79BCD0 for ; Thu, 29 Aug 2019 03:24:51 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mcvoy.com (Postfix, from userid 3546) id 2E7FF35E0A8; Wed, 28 Aug 2019 10:24:51 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2019 10:24:51 -0700 From: Larry McVoy To: Paul Winalski Message-ID: <20190828172451.GX13570@mcvoy.com> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) Subject: Re: [TUHS] ISO, OSI, and DECnet (was Re: If not Linux, then what?) X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: TUHS main list Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 12:50:36PM -0400, Paul Winalski wrote: > On 8/28/19, Clem Cole wrote: > > On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 2:46 AM Peter Jeremy wrote: > > > > Tru64 talked to DECnet Phase X (I don't remember which one, maybe 4 or 5), > > which had become an ISO/OSI stack by that point for political reasons > > inside of Digital (the OSI vs TCP war reminded me of the Pascal vs C and > > VMS vs UNIX wars - all very silly in retrospect, but I guess it was really > > about who got which $s for development). > > It was DECnet Phase V that was based on the ISO/OSI stack. IIRC, at > the time the European telcos were pushing OSI, it had become an ISO > standard, etc. etc. It was also pretty easy to compatibly slide the > legacy proprietary DECnet Phase IV adaptive routing and virtual > circuit layers into the OSI stack. > > TCP won the war, of course. The risk with international standards > fashioned out of whole cloth by a committee (as opposed to being a > regularization of existing practice) is that the marketplace may > choose to ignore the "standard". OSI and the Ada programming language > are cases in point. The great Mike Padlipski said "do you want protocols that look nice or protocols that work nice?" in his fantastic book Elements of Networking Style [*]. Maybe it's just that I read that book at the right time, I was porting Lachman's STREAMS based TCP/IP stack, I had taken a networking class where we built a stack, so I knew there was a state machine in there, I had read Masscomp's networking primer and written some clients and servers. So I sort of knew a little but did not have the big picture. I read Mike's book and it snapped everything into focus, which is in part why I loved it. The other part was all the less than subtle jabs at OSI. Mike couldn't stand the OSI model, another quote from the book is "If you know what you are doing, 3 layers are enough. If you don't, 7 layers won't help you". I liked the book enough that I tracked down a phone number for Mike, I think he was at UCLA or somewhere in LA but I might be wrong (the number I have is 310-670-4288 which is a LA area code), and called him and thanked him for the book. We ended up becoming friendly with each other and chatted from time to time about networking stuff. I miss that guy, he was great. [*] The book is available here for $20. Worth it. https://www.iuniverse.com/en/bookstore/bookdetails/124830-The-Elements-of-Networking-Style