* Re: [TUHS] Running v10
@ 2019-08-30 19:50 Norman Wilson
2019-08-30 20:10 ` Angelo Papenhoff
0 siblings, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread
From: Norman Wilson @ 2019-08-30 19:50 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: tuhs
Check out "Setting Up a Research UNIX System" by Norman Wilson. troff
sources are in v10.
====
But that assumes you're being given a root image to copy
to the disk initially, no? We never made a general-purpose
distribution tape; we just made one-off snapshots when someone
wanted a copy of the system in the 10/e era.
Is there a binary root image in Warren's archive? I forget.
Norman Wilson
Toronto ON
(where the weather feels like NJ these days, dammit)
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Running v10
2019-08-30 19:50 [TUHS] Running v10 Norman Wilson
@ 2019-08-30 20:10 ` Angelo Papenhoff
0 siblings, 0 replies; 7+ messages in thread
From: Angelo Papenhoff @ 2019-08-30 20:10 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: tuhs
On 30/08/19, Norman Wilson wrote:
> Check out "Setting Up a Research UNIX System" by Norman Wilson. troff
> sources are in v10.
>
> ====
>
> But that assumes you're being given a root image to copy
> to the disk initially, no? We never made a general-purpose
> distribution tape; we just made one-off snapshots when someone
> wanted a copy of the system in the 10/e era.
>
> Is there a binary root image in Warren's archive? I forget.
No we don't. Our hope would be to compile things from source and
bootstrap it from v8. I don't know the state of v9, I've seen it
emulated on a sun but if this helps with bootstrapping v10...
We also have sources for Doug's IX in history/ix...maybe that helps too
in some ways.
Or maybe someone who still has v10 running can help out.
I'd really like to see it running, wouldn't it be fitting for the 50th
anniversary?
aap
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] If not Linux, then what?
@ 2019-08-26 23:13 Arthur Krewat
2019-08-26 23:27 ` Warner Losh
0 siblings, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread
From: Arthur Krewat @ 2019-08-26 23:13 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: TUHS main list
https://linux.slashdot.org/story/19/08/26/0051234/celebrating-the-28th-anniversary-of-the-linux-kernel
Leaving licensing and copyright issues out of this mental exercise, what
would we have now if it wasn't for Linux? Not what you'd WANT it to be,
although that can add to the discussion, but what WOULD it be?
I'm not asking as a proponent of Linux. If anything, I was dragged
kicking and screaming into the current day and have begrudgingly ceded
my server space to Linux.
But if not for Linux, would it be BSD? A System V variant? Or (the
horror) Windows NT?
I do understand that this has been discussed on the list before. I
think, however, it would make a good late-summer exercise. Or late
winter depending on where you are :)
art k.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] If not Linux, then what?
2019-08-26 23:13 [TUHS] If not Linux, then what? Arthur Krewat
@ 2019-08-26 23:27 ` Warner Losh
2019-08-26 23:56 ` William Pechter
0 siblings, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread
From: Warner Losh @ 2019-08-26 23:27 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Arthur Krewat; +Cc: TUHS main list
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On Mon, Aug 26, 2019, 5:14 PM Arthur Krewat <krewat@kilonet.net> wrote:
>
> https://linux.slashdot.org/story/19/08/26/0051234/celebrating-the-28th-anniversary-of-the-linux-kernel
>
> Leaving licensing and copyright issues out of this mental exercise, what
> would we have now if it wasn't for Linux? Not what you'd WANT it to be,
> although that can add to the discussion, but what WOULD it be?
>
> I'm not asking as a proponent of Linux. If anything, I was dragged
> kicking and screaming into the current day and have begrudgingly ceded
> my server space to Linux.
>
> But if not for Linux, would it be BSD? A System V variant? Or (the
> horror) Windows NT?
>
BSD was in decent enough shape at the time to run on PCs. Though it
fragmented early through no fault of Linux. And the AT&T lawsuit created a
lot of FUD in the area without actually protecting System V. It's unclear
if another thing would have popped up to fill the void... Linux flourished
in the confusion, but without it, it's hard to know if something else would
have been developed before the AT&T lawsuit settled.
Warner
I do understand that this has been discussed on the list before. I
> think, however, it would make a good late-summer exercise. Or late
> winter depending on where you are :)
>
> art k.
>
>
>
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] If not Linux, then what?
2019-08-26 23:27 ` Warner Losh
@ 2019-08-26 23:56 ` William Pechter
2019-08-27 0:19 ` Arthur Krewat
0 siblings, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread
From: William Pechter @ 2019-08-26 23:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: tuhs
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On 8/26/2019 7:27 PM, Warner Losh wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 26, 2019, 5:14 PM Arthur Krewat <krewat@kilonet.net
> <mailto:krewat@kilonet.net>> wrote:
>
> https://linux.slashdot.org/story/19/08/26/0051234/celebrating-the-28th-anniversary-of-the-linux-kernel
>
> Leaving licensing and copyright issues out of this mental
> exercise, what
> would we have now if it wasn't for Linux? Not what you'd WANT it
> to be,
> although that can add to the discussion, but what WOULD it be?
>
> I'm not asking as a proponent of Linux. If anything, I was dragged
> kicking and screaming into the current day and have begrudgingly
> ceded
> my server space to Linux.
>
> But if not for Linux, would it be BSD? A System V variant? Or (the
> horror) Windows NT?
>
>
> BSD was in decent enough shape at the time to run on PCs. Though it
> fragmented early through no fault of Linux. And the AT&T lawsuit
> created a lot of FUD in the area without actually protecting System V.
> It's unclear if another thing would have popped up to fill the void...
> Linux flourished in the confusion, but without it, it's hard to know
> if something else would have been developed before the AT&T lawsuit
> settled.
>
> Warner
>
>
> I do understand that this has been discussed on the list before. I
> think, however, it would make a good late-summer exercise. Or late
> winter depending on where you are :)
>
> art k.
>
>
I ran both FreeBSD (up through at least 4.11 (and have the Tshirt) and
NetBSD back in the 0.8 0.9 time frame. My final -- (I used to move
between them based on stability and driver support) -- move to Linux was
caused by a lack of drivers for the Lenovo Workstation that used the
Marvell 88SE63XX which with 5 SAS/SATA drives on it and 3 available on
the Intel SATA controller would've been a great in-house server.
I really preferred the FreeBSD stability and docs back in the early
1990's -- but by 2000 my jobs were all going Linux (Red Hat Sysadmin
mostly) and I figured the work was moving to supported RHEL. One of the
things that often made me migrate was the support (in the early days) of
all the weird interfaced cdrom drives like the Panasonic and other
pre-ATAPI stuff.
I'm going to revisit the ZFS on Linux stuff when Ubuntu puts it in their
installer. That will finally get me what I want on the D20.
Bill
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] If not Linux, then what?
2019-08-26 23:56 ` William Pechter
@ 2019-08-27 0:19 ` Arthur Krewat
2019-08-27 0:30 ` Larry McVoy
0 siblings, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread
From: Arthur Krewat @ 2019-08-27 0:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: tuhs
On 8/26/2019 7:56 PM, William Pechter wrote:
> ZFS
Here, here!
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] If not Linux, then what?
2019-08-27 0:19 ` Arthur Krewat
@ 2019-08-27 0:30 ` Larry McVoy
2019-08-27 0:58 ` Rob Pike
0 siblings, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread
From: Larry McVoy @ 2019-08-27 0:30 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Arthur Krewat; +Cc: tuhs
On Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 08:19:45PM -0400, Arthur Krewat wrote:
> On 8/26/2019 7:56 PM, William Pechter wrote:
> >ZFS
>
> Here, here!
I really don't understand the love for ZFS. I hired Bonwick and I
hired Moore, I had high expectations but they were all dashed when I
realized ZFS doesn't use the page cache. That's so crazy busted I lost
all interest in ZFS. ZFS took us back to HP-UX mmap semantics.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] If not Linux, then what?
2019-08-27 0:30 ` Larry McVoy
@ 2019-08-27 0:58 ` Rob Pike
2019-08-27 16:05 ` [TUHS] Running v10 Angelo Papenhoff
0 siblings, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread
From: Rob Pike @ 2019-08-27 0:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Larry McVoy; +Cc: tuhs
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I always thought Research 10th Edition was fantastic. Even the 8th edition
was an improvement on most of its successors. But things flowed another
way, with muddy streams mixing in.
-rob
On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 10:30 AM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 08:19:45PM -0400, Arthur Krewat wrote:
> > On 8/26/2019 7:56 PM, William Pechter wrote:
> > >ZFS
> >
> > Here, here!
>
> I really don't understand the love for ZFS. I hired Bonwick and I
> hired Moore, I had high expectations but they were all dashed when I
> realized ZFS doesn't use the page cache. That's so crazy busted I lost
> all interest in ZFS. ZFS took us back to HP-UX mmap semantics.
>
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Running v10
2019-08-27 0:58 ` Rob Pike
@ 2019-08-27 16:05 ` Angelo Papenhoff
2019-08-27 16:27 ` Henry Bent
0 siblings, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread
From: Angelo Papenhoff @ 2019-08-27 16:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: tuhs
Did anyone try to get v10 running in simh yet? It's been public for a
while now and while we have two blit emulators already I haven't seen
v10 alive yet. I have to admit I haven't tried to get it running myself either.
aap
On 27/08/19, Rob Pike wrote:
> I always thought Research 10th Edition was fantastic. Even the 8th edition
> was an improvement on most of its successors. But things flowed another
> way, with muddy streams mixing in.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Running v10
2019-08-27 16:05 ` [TUHS] Running v10 Angelo Papenhoff
@ 2019-08-27 16:27 ` Henry Bent
2019-08-28 4:22 ` Jason Stevens
0 siblings, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread
From: Henry Bent @ 2019-08-27 16:27 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Angelo Papenhoff; +Cc: TUHS main list
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On Tue, 27 Aug 2019 at 12:12, Angelo Papenhoff <aap@papnet.eu> wrote:
> Did anyone try to get v10 running in simh yet? It's been public for a
> while now and while we have two blit emulators already I haven't seen
> v10 alive yet. I have to admit I haven't tried to get it running myself
> either.
>
After a brief look at the boot and config sources it appears as though
there is support for the MicroVAX II which SIMH supports and I have used.
Is there an environment which is preferred for building the V10 source
tree? 4.3BSD? V8? Something else?
-Henry
On 27/08/19, Rob Pike wrote:
> > I always thought Research 10th Edition was fantastic. Even the 8th
> edition
> > was an improvement on most of its successors. But things flowed another
> > way, with muddy streams mixing in.
>
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Running v10
2019-08-27 16:27 ` Henry Bent
@ 2019-08-28 4:22 ` Jason Stevens
2019-08-28 7:34 ` Angelo Papenhoff
0 siblings, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread
From: Jason Stevens @ 2019-08-28 4:22 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Henry Bent, Angelo Papenhoff; +Cc: TUHS main list
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I don’t recall their being detailed installation instructions like v8/v9. I never noticed the vax boot stuff as it was buried in the tree. It’s possible that it’s buildable. Or it could be incomplete like the Mach 2.5 VAX missing system headers….
I guess it’s worth trying on whatever should be the parallel BSD system if it’s like v8/v9 which needed a BSD machine to bootstrap.
From: Henry Bent
Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2019 12:28 AM
To: Angelo Papenhoff
Cc: TUHS main list
Subject: Re: [TUHS] Running v10
On Tue, 27 Aug 2019 at 12:12, Angelo Papenhoff <aap@papnet.eu> wrote:
Did anyone try to get v10 running in simh yet? It's been public for a
while now and while we have two blit emulators already I haven't seen
v10 alive yet. I have to admit I haven't tried to get it running myself either.
After a brief look at the boot and config sources it appears as though there is support for the MicroVAX II which SIMH supports and I have used. Is there an environment which is preferred for building the V10 source tree? 4.3BSD? V8? Something else?
-Henry
On 27/08/19, Rob Pike wrote:
> I always thought Research 10th Edition was fantastic. Even the 8th edition
> was an improvement on most of its successors. But things flowed another
> way, with muddy streams mixing in.
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Running v10
2019-08-28 4:22 ` Jason Stevens
@ 2019-08-28 7:34 ` Angelo Papenhoff
2019-08-28 16:46 ` Henry Bent
0 siblings, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread
From: Angelo Papenhoff @ 2019-08-28 7:34 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: TUHS main list
On 28/08/19, Jason Stevens wrote:
> I don’t recall their being detailed installation instructions like v8/v9. I never noticed the vax boot stuff as it was buried in the tree. It’s possible that it’s buildable. Or it could be incomplete like the Mach 2.5 VAX missing system headers….
>
> I guess it’s worth trying on whatever should be the parallel BSD system if it’s like v8/v9 which needed a BSD machine to bootstrap.
Check out "Setting Up a Research UNIX System" by Norman Wilson. troff
sources are in v10.
aap
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Running v10
2019-08-28 7:34 ` Angelo Papenhoff
@ 2019-08-28 16:46 ` Henry Bent
0 siblings, 0 replies; 7+ messages in thread
From: Henry Bent @ 2019-08-28 16:46 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Angelo Papenhoff; +Cc: TUHS main list
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On Wed, 28 Aug 2019 at 03:41, Angelo Papenhoff <aap@papnet.eu> wrote:
> On 28/08/19, Jason Stevens wrote:
> > I don’t recall their being detailed installation instructions like
> v8/v9. I never noticed the vax boot stuff as it was buried in the tree.
> It’s possible that it’s buildable. Or it could be incomplete like the Mach
> 2.5 VAX missing system headers….
> >
> > I guess it’s worth trying on whatever should be the parallel BSD system
> if it’s like v8/v9 which needed a BSD machine to bootstrap.
>
> Check out "Setting Up a Research UNIX System" by Norman Wilson. troff
> sources are in v10.
>
Thanks, I hadn't found that yet. Unfortunately it assumes that you have a
tape with at least a root and /usr dump, which we do not have.
I have several ideas about how one might go about building the tree using
existing distributions but any further discussion probably isn't
appropriate for this list. If anyone would like to collaborate please feel
free to contact me off-list.
-Henry
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
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2019-08-30 19:50 [TUHS] Running v10 Norman Wilson
2019-08-30 20:10 ` Angelo Papenhoff
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2019-08-26 23:13 [TUHS] If not Linux, then what? Arthur Krewat
2019-08-26 23:27 ` Warner Losh
2019-08-26 23:56 ` William Pechter
2019-08-27 0:19 ` Arthur Krewat
2019-08-27 0:30 ` Larry McVoy
2019-08-27 0:58 ` Rob Pike
2019-08-27 16:05 ` [TUHS] Running v10 Angelo Papenhoff
2019-08-27 16:27 ` Henry Bent
2019-08-28 4:22 ` Jason Stevens
2019-08-28 7:34 ` Angelo Papenhoff
2019-08-28 16:46 ` Henry Bent
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