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* [TUHS] PWB vs Unix/TS
@ 2019-09-09  6:25 Warner Losh
  2019-09-09  6:36 ` arnold
  2019-09-10 15:16 ` Clem Cole
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 85+ messages in thread
From: Warner Losh @ 2019-09-09  6:25 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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OK. I'm totally confused, and I see contradictory information around. So I
thought I'd ask here.

PWB was started to support unix time sharing at bell labs in 1973 (around
V4 time).
PWB 1.0 was released just after V6 "based on" it. PWB 2.0 was released just
after V7, also "based on it". Later Unix TS 3.0 would become System III. We
know there was no System I or System II. But was there a Unix TS 1.0 and
2.0? And were they the same thing as PWB 1.0 and 2.0, or somehow just
closely related? And I've seen both Unix/TS and Unix TS. Is there a
preferred spelling?

Thanks for all your help with this topic and sorting things out. It's been
quite helpful for my talk in a few weeks.

Warner

P.S. Would it be inappropriate to solicit feedback on an early version of
my talk from this group? I'm sure they would be rather keener on catching
errors in my understanding of Unix history than just about any other
forum...

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] SCCS
@ 2019-09-12  4:25 Jon Steinhart
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 85+ messages in thread
From: Jon Steinhart @ 2019-09-12  4:25 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

George Michaelson writes:
> What Larry and the other RCS haters forget is that back in the day,
> when we all had more hair, RCS was --->FAST<--- and SCCS was S.L.O.W.
>
> because running forward edits on a base state of 1000 edits is slow.
> Since the majority action is increment +1 on the head state the RCS
> model, whilst broken in many ways
> was FAST
>
> -G

And also that RCS had a much friendlier interface.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] SCCS
@ 2019-09-13 21:37 Norman Wilson
  2019-09-13 21:51 ` Larry McVoy
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 85+ messages in thread
From: Norman Wilson @ 2019-09-13 21:37 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

Well, if we're going to get into editor, erm, version-control wars,
I'll state my unpopular opinion that SCCS and RCS were no good at
all and CVS only pretended to be any good.  Subversion was the first
system I could stand using.

The actual basis for that opinion (and it's just my opinion but it's
not pulled out of hyperspace) is that the older systems think only
about one file at a time, not collections of files.  To me that's
useless for any but the most-trivial programming (and wasn't
non-trivial programming what spurred such systems?).  When I am
working on a non-trivial program, there's almost always more than
one source file, and to keep things clean often means refactoring:
splitting one file into several, merging different files, removing
files that contain no-longer-useful junk, adding files that
implement new things, renaming files.

A revision-control system that thinks only about one file at a
time can't keep track of those changes.  To me that makes it
worse than useless; not only can it not record a single
commit with a single message and version number when files
are split and combined, it requires extra work to keep all
those files under version control at all.

CVS makes an attempt to handle those things, but the effect
is clunky in practice compared to successors like svn.

One shouldn't underestimate the importance of a non-clunky
interface.  In retrospect it seems stupid that we didn't have
some sort of revision control discipline in Research UNIX, but
given the clunkiness of SCCS and RCS and CVS, there's no way
most of us would have put up with it.  Given that we often had
different people playing with the same program concurrently,
it would have taken at least CVS to meet our needs anyway.

Norman `recidivist' Wilson
Toronto ON

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread

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Thread overview: 85+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2019-09-09  6:25 [TUHS] PWB vs Unix/TS Warner Losh
2019-09-09  6:36 ` arnold
2019-09-10 15:16 ` Clem Cole
2019-09-11  0:28   ` Steve Johnson
2019-09-11  3:53   ` Warner Losh
2019-09-11 15:36     ` Clem Cole
2019-09-11 16:55       ` [TUHS] IBM Unix source licenses [was " Charles H Sauer
2019-09-12 19:31         ` Kevin Bowling
2019-09-12 20:59           ` Clem Cole
2019-09-12 21:09             ` [TUHS] IBM Unix source licenses - Series/1 NUXI Ronald Natalie
2019-09-12 21:31             ` [TUHS] IBM Unix source licenses [was Re: PWB vs Unix/TS Warner Losh
2019-09-12 22:30             ` jcs
2019-09-12 23:12               ` reed
2019-09-12 23:22                 ` jcs
2019-09-12 23:29               ` [TUHS] IBM Unix source licenses Warren Toomey
2019-09-13  7:06                 ` arnold
2019-09-13  8:30                 ` SPC
2019-09-14 18:29                   ` Warner Losh
2019-09-12 21:29           ` [TUHS] IBM Unix source licenses [was Re: PWB vs Unix/TS Charles H Sauer
2019-09-11 17:49       ` [TUHS] " Richard Salz
2019-09-11 17:52         ` ron
2019-09-11 21:44           ` Clem Cole
2019-09-11 18:11       ` Larry McVoy
2019-09-11 18:18         ` Richard Salz
2019-09-11 18:54           ` Larry McVoy
2019-09-11 21:05             ` Steve Johnson
2019-09-11 21:34             ` Steve Johnson
2019-09-11 21:57             ` Clem Cole
2019-09-11 22:50               ` Arthur Krewat
2019-09-11 21:59           ` Clem Cole
2019-09-11 21:50         ` Clem Cole
2019-09-11 22:49         ` Dave Horsfall
2019-09-12  3:43           ` [TUHS] SCCS Larry McVoy
2019-09-12  4:20             ` George Michaelson
2019-09-12  4:31               ` [TUHS] [SPAM] SCCS Larry McVoy
2019-09-12 13:44                 ` Tony Finch
2019-09-13  4:11                   ` Larry McVoy
2019-09-13  5:54                     ` Dave Horsfall
2019-09-13  8:00                       ` Peter Jeremy
2019-09-13 15:23                         ` Larry McVoy
2019-09-13 21:36                         ` Dave Horsfall
2019-09-12  4:28             ` [TUHS] SCCS Jon Forrest
2019-09-12  4:33               ` Larry McVoy
2019-09-12  6:12                 ` William Corcoran
2019-09-12 14:35                   ` Clem Cole
2019-09-13  5:22                 ` Dave Horsfall
2019-09-13  5:50                   ` Bakul Shah
2019-09-12 16:45               ` Eric Allman
2019-09-12 17:29                 ` Clem Cole
2019-09-12 17:47                   ` Warner Losh
2019-09-13  8:12                   ` emanuel stiebler
2019-09-13 21:11                     ` Steffen Nurpmeso
2019-09-13 21:17                       ` Larry McVoy
2019-09-13 21:48                         ` Bakul Shah
2019-09-13 23:12                           ` Steffen Nurpmeso
2019-09-13 23:03                         ` Steffen Nurpmeso
2019-09-14  1:55                           ` [TUHS] [SPAM] SCCS Larry McVoy
2019-09-16 17:23                             ` [TUHS] SCCS Steffen Nurpmeso
2019-09-16 20:31                               ` Larry McVoy
2019-09-17 17:57                                 ` Steffen Nurpmeso
2019-09-18  8:48                               ` Eric Allman
2019-09-18 17:33                                 ` Steffen Nurpmeso
2019-09-12 20:07             ` Nemo
2019-09-11 16:05   ` [TUHS] PWB vs Unix/TS Paul Winalski
2019-09-11 17:14     ` ron
2019-09-14  0:44   ` [TUHS] a book (was Re: PWB vs Unix/TS) reed
2019-09-14  2:53     ` Warner Losh
2019-09-15  2:18       ` Jon Steinhart
2019-09-15  2:39         ` Clem Cole
2019-09-15  3:24         ` Adam Thornton
2019-09-14 22:46     ` Clem cole
2019-09-15  0:58       ` Adam Thornton
2019-09-15  3:30         ` Eric Allman
2019-09-15  4:21           ` Larry McVoy
2019-09-15  5:17             ` Jon Steinhart
2019-09-15 20:14               ` Clem Cole
2019-09-15 20:21                 ` Jon Steinhart
2019-09-15 20:12           ` Clem Cole
2019-09-15 21:28             ` Dave Horsfall
2019-09-15 23:27               ` Clem cole
2019-09-15 23:45                 ` Richard Salz
2019-09-15  7:43     ` Andy Kosela
2019-09-12  4:25 [TUHS] SCCS Jon Steinhart
2019-09-13 21:37 Norman Wilson
2019-09-13 21:51 ` Larry McVoy

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