From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 675a864a for ; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 14:54:43 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 610839BF4B; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 00:54:42 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8252D94791; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 00:54:30 +1000 (AEST) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 6156C9BDB1; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 00:54:29 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mcvoy.com (mcvoy.com [192.169.23.250]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 21E709478F for ; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 00:54:29 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mcvoy.com (Postfix, from userid 3546) id EBE6B35E11A; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 07:54:28 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2019 07:54:28 -0700 From: Larry McVoy To: Clem Cole Message-ID: <20190916145428.GJ2046@mcvoy.com> References: <20190914020240.GO2046@mcvoy.com> <20190914024433.GA19193@minnie.tuhs.org> <2e84c4d0-5239-b223-856d-00aacf8d3028@andrewnesbit.org> <201909150654.x8F6sChG021185@freefriends.org> <201909160552.x8G5qBYK025195@freefriends.org> <7wd0g0o2a0.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) Subject: Re: [TUHS] earliest Unix roff X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" Holy smokes, Clem, you are me and I am you. I couldn't agree more with this post, especially 'least astonishment'. On Mon, Sep 16, 2019 at 09:42:56AM -0400, Clem Cole wrote: > What irks me is the blatant force-feeding of any system to the users, be it > ITS, UNIX or Windows into another. It's ok to offer an alternative > interface, but when the system has a mechanism, your tools need to be *socially > compliant* with it, not try to make 'those users become like me.' > Frankly, that is a pretty arrogant behavior. Yes, I know the argument is > two fold. GNU is not UNIX and we wrote it (he who has the gold, gets to > rule). > > BTW: If it makes you feel better, I've been fighting this attitude at a > number of places, particularly Intel, for years. For instance, our dev > tools folks wrote their own Installer 'because it was easier for them and > they could use it everywhere'). That's a no-no. If you have Windows > product, you must use Microsoft's installer, if you have a Mac, you use > what Apple gives you, if you have VMS, you used the (wretched) setld, or in > this case, for Linux its rpm/yum et al.; etc. But they had their own > 'installer group' and it was easier for >>them<< than for the users. > > I think the rule of 'least astonishment' is what needs to be the high order > bit when building tools for people. Again, offering emacs (or any other > ITS tool) is fine, but when the new tool is installed on Windows/UNIX/Mac > et.. it needs to behave itself with the rest of the system, particularly if > there is already a mechanism in place to do a support function. > > Simply, I would not mind info(gnu) and texinfo(gnu) if there was a way to > created man pages (or Windows / Mac help). But having a man page that > basically says, see figure one > is not cool. > > my 2 cents from a grumpy old guy.... > Clem -- --- Larry McVoy lm at mcvoy.com http://www.mcvoy.com/lm