From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 0c4e2eb1 for ; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 16:26:31 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id DB1A49BFC7; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 02:26:29 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 516D59478F; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 02:26:17 +1000 (AEST) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 6FE9F9478F; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 02:26:15 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mcvoy.com (mcvoy.com [192.169.23.250]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 204769478D for ; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 02:26:15 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mcvoy.com (Postfix, from userid 3546) id B1A5935E11A; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 09:26:14 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2019 09:26:14 -0700 From: Larry McVoy To: Jon Steinhart Message-ID: <20190916162614.GO2046@mcvoy.com> References: <2e84c4d0-5239-b223-856d-00aacf8d3028@andrewnesbit.org> <201909150654.x8F6sChG021185@freefriends.org> <201909160552.x8G5qBYK025195@freefriends.org> <20190916145122.GH2046@mcvoy.com> <20190916161040.GM2046@mcvoy.com> <201909161616.x8GGG4Fb020760@darkstar.fourwinds.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <201909161616.x8GGG4Fb020760@darkstar.fourwinds.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) Subject: Re: [TUHS] earliest Unix roff X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" +1 On Mon, Sep 16, 2019 at 09:16:03AM -0700, Jon Steinhart wrote: > Larry McVoy writes: > > On Mon, Sep 16, 2019 at 11:14:25AM -0400, Richard Salz wrote: > > > Is it any surprise that the early GNU effort was really trying to recreate > > > ITS? Can you really blame them? I'm grateful that they made `info` be a > > > standalone program. Putting the concept of "cursor position" into the > > > existing pagers (more/less/etc) and doing jump/xref/back would be more than > > > a stretch, IMO. > > > > It's what Clem said. You should acclimate yourself to your environment. > > Pushing info into man environment is a lot like being an immigrant and > > wanting to bring your laws into your new homeland. That isn't a thing > > and shouldn't be a thing. Doesn't matter that people think ITS is better, > > they are in Unix. If you think ITS is better, go live there. > > > > When in Rome.... > > Well, in the shameless department, I can quote from my book: > > Mucking up the ecosystem into which you release code does not > add value. Many developers behave as if they???re stereotypical > Americans vacationing in another country, or for that matter my > father-in-law visiting ??? the ???I just came to your place, so do > things my way??? attitude. > > For example, UNIX systems have a command that displays manual pages > for programs. You can type man foo and it???ll show you the page > for the foo command. There???s also a convention that really complex > commands, such as yacc , have both a manual page and a longer, more > in-depth document that describes the program in more detail. When > the GNU project (which I???ll discuss shortly) added commands to > UNIX, it used its own texinfo system for manuals, which wasn???t > compatible with the man system. The result was that users would have > to try both the man and info commands to find documentation. Even > if, as some believe, the GNU approach was superior, any possible > benefits were outweighed by the UNIX community???s huge loss of > productivity that resulted from the fragmented ecosystem. -- --- Larry McVoy lm at mcvoy.com http://www.mcvoy.com/lm