From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 80cfec12 for ; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 17:32:29 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id C1FF19BFDA; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 03:32:28 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BB179479D; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 03:32:18 +1000 (AEST) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 0B6A09479D; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 03:32:17 +1000 (AEST) Received: from darkstar.fourwinds.com (fourwinds.com [63.64.179.162]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 65E8F9478F for ; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 03:32:16 +1000 (AEST) Received: from darkstar.fourwinds.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkstar.fourwinds.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id x8GHWF9N007601 for ; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 10:32:15 -0700 Received: from darkstar.fourwinds.com (jon@localhost) by darkstar.fourwinds.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id x8GHWFjS007598 for ; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 10:32:15 -0700 Message-Id: <201909161732.x8GHWFjS007598@darkstar.fourwinds.com> From: Jon Steinhart To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society In-reply-to: <20190916172422.GS2046@mcvoy.com> References: <20190916145122.GH2046@mcvoy.com> <20190916161040.GM2046@mcvoy.com> <201909161616.x8GGG4Fb020760@darkstar.fourwinds.com> <20190916162614.GO2046@mcvoy.com> <20190916164502.GQ2046@mcvoy.com> <20190916171905.piituc2qdh46kejt@unixfarts.net> <20190916172422.GS2046@mcvoy.com> Comments: In-reply-to Larry McVoy message dated "Mon, 16 Sep 2019 10:24:22 -0700." MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-ID: <7596.1568655135.1@darkstar.fourwinds.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2019 10:32:15 -0700 X-JON-SPAM: local delivery Subject: Re: [TUHS] earliest Unix roff X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" Larry McVoy writes: > On Mon, Sep 16, 2019 at 07:19:05PM +0200, KatolaZ wrote: > > On Mon, Sep 16, 2019 at 09:45:02AM -0700, Larry McVoy wrote: > > > > [cut] > > > > > > > > Those who defend the choice of info over man just aren't real Unix > > > people. And that's fine, Unix isn't the only choice, they can go > > > run some other OS and be happy. But it's just rude to thrust info > > > into a Unix system. And lame because they could have parsed man > > > pages into info docs and then they are adopting the Unix way of > > > doing things and actually adding value. > > > > Sorry, but I totally don't see the point here. > > Jon put it well, the point is people expect to be able to say > > man foo > > and have that work. Until GNU came along, that's the way it was. > GNU pushed a different system into the mix. > > The secondary point is they could have *added* to Unix by making a > man2info command, I know they could have because I've done something > similar, parsing man or -ms pages is trivial. > > GNU choose not to do that and I can't begin to express how wrong > that was. GNU is not Unix for sure. So I'm not really trying to be all that shameless, it's just that I've already written down my opinions on this sort of stuff and don't need to retype it all. >From a section entitled "The Value Proposition": There's an overarching question that you should keep in mind when working on a project: "Am I adding value?" I'm not talking about the intrinsic value of accomplishing some task here; I'm talking about increasing productivity. If you're programming for a living, you need to meet whatever goals your employer has set. But, of course, there's more than one way to meet those goals. You could just do what you need to do to get by. Or, you could put a little thought into things that might not have occurred to management. For example, you might realize that your code would be useful in another project and structure it so it's easily reusable. Or, you might sense that you were tasked to implement a special case of a more general problem and solve that general problem instead, paving the way for future enhancements. Of course, you should talk about this with management so that they're not surprised. You can add value to yourself by making sure that you're proficient in a variety of technologies. Side projects are a common way to get experience; it's equivalent to doing homework but more fun. One classic way in which people attempt to add value is by creating tools. This is trickier than it seems because sometimes adding value for yourself reduces value for others. People often create new tools because some feature that they think they need is missing from existing ones. A good example is the make utility (invented by Stuart Feldman at Bell Labs in 1976), which is used to build large software packages. As time went on, new features were needed. Some of these were added to make, but in many other cases, people created well-intentioned but incompatible new utilities that performed similar functions. (For example, I consulted for a company once that wrote their own solely because they didn't bother to completely read the make documentation and were unaware that it would do exactly what they needed.) Now there's make, cmake, dmake, imake, pick-a-letter-make, and other programs that all do similar things in incompatible ways. The result is that practitioners like you need to learn multiple tools in each category. It makes everyone's life harder, not easier. It doesn't add value—it detracts. Figure 15-1 sums up the situation nicely. [ Figure 15-1 is the xkcd how standards proliferate cartoon ]