From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 457cfa82 for ; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 17:37:14 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 712EE9BFDF; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 03:37:13 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35BEF9478F; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 03:37:06 +1000 (AEST) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 5572D9478F; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 03:37:04 +1000 (AEST) Received: from darkstar.fourwinds.com (fourwinds.com [63.64.179.162]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EB4A89478D for ; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 03:37:03 +1000 (AEST) Received: from darkstar.fourwinds.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkstar.fourwinds.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id x8GHb3sl008248 for ; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 10:37:03 -0700 Received: from darkstar.fourwinds.com (jon@localhost) by darkstar.fourwinds.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id x8GHb3SG008244 for ; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 10:37:03 -0700 Message-Id: <201909161737.x8GHb3SG008244@darkstar.fourwinds.com> From: Jon Steinhart To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society In-reply-to: <20190916171905.piituc2qdh46kejt@unixfarts.net> References: <201909160552.x8G5qBYK025195@freefriends.org> <20190916145122.GH2046@mcvoy.com> <20190916161040.GM2046@mcvoy.com> <201909161616.x8GGG4Fb020760@darkstar.fourwinds.com> <20190916162614.GO2046@mcvoy.com> <20190916164502.GQ2046@mcvoy.com> <20190916171905.piituc2qdh46kejt@unixfarts.net> Comments: In-reply-to KatolaZ message dated "Mon, 16 Sep 2019 19:19:05 +0200." MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <8242.1568655423.1@darkstar.fourwinds.com> Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2019 10:37:03 -0700 X-JON-SPAM: local delivery Subject: Re: [TUHS] earliest Unix roff X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" KatolaZ writes: > Sorry, but I totally don't see the point here. The problem is not the > technology, but the adopters. I personally don't like info at all, and > still swear whenever a software comes without a proper manpage, but > info has not been shovelled down your throat (or anybody else's, for > that matter). The adopters have decided that info was fine for their > use case. They could have written manpages and send patches over, and > in many cases they didn't. > > There is plenty of software coming from the GNU project that has > comprehensive and clear manpages (just to cite a single example, > bash(1) comes with manpages, and no info doc). At the same time, there > is tons of "Unix" software around that comes without any documentation > *at all*, or with scant text files covering the bare basics. > > Unfortunately this trend is only getting worse, and we have far too > many notaable examples here, not all of them coming from the GNU > project, or from the "ITS tradition", whatever it means for you. > > I agree that whoever does not produce a readily usable documentaion > for their software has not really understood much of the Unix > philosophy. But that's not at all a matter of formats, rather of > culture. > > Then, if you just want to vomit on info, or you prefer to use info as > another excuse to vomit on the GNU project, well go ahead. But the > actual issue is elsewhere (the lack of respect for the users, and the > tendency to hide stuff under the carpet), and has not been introduced > by the GNU project, at all. > > My2Cents > > Enzo Nicosia It seems to me that you're missing the point here. It's not a question of whether or not GNU programs have good documentation. It's the fact that GNU made it hard to find documentation because they took one pile and split it into two with no guide to what was in each pile. It's not that their documentation was good or bad, it's that they made it hard to find any documentation. Maybe it's because I'm a child of the 60s, but I'm with Arlo Guthrie on this one (from Alice's Restaurant): "And we decided that one big pile is better than two little piles, and rather than bring that one up we decided to throw ours down." Jon