From: Jon Steinhart <jon@fourwinds.com>
To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society <tuhs@tuhs.org>
Subject: Re: [TUHS] [OT] Re: earliest Unix roff
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2019 11:19:09 -0700 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <201909161819.x8GIJ9Om014429@darkstar.fourwinds.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20190916180942.qlipaxn4hq7of3kd@unixfarts.net>
KatolaZ writes:
> Dear Jon, I am a child of the 70s, so I know the drill ;)
>
> What I am saying is that the vast majority of the software from the
> GNU project actually has a good-quality manpage acoompanying it. And
> it also has the same documentation in info format. Hence I see no
> point in vomiting on info (which I mostly dislike anyway, as I said),
> as on any other document format, as long as the same information is
> made available via manpages as well, as it is the case for most of the
> software present in current Unix systems, wherever it comes from. The
> split caused by the introduction of info has mainly been cured by the
> community, maybe too late, but still.
>
> We can discuss whether the split was necessary or "right" in the first
> instance, as we could discuss whether it was good or not for cat(1) to
> leave Murray Hill in 1979 with no options and come back from Berkley
> with a source code doubled in size and 9 options in 1982. We could do
> that, but perhaps we shouldn't get too partisan, since the history of
> Unix is not a simple single-threaded and linear one, as the many
> insightful contributions posted in this ML show. It's a continuum,
> where it is difficult to find any single element which is totally
> right or totally wrong.
>
> I honestly see more danger in the recent trend that avoids
> documentation altogether, except for a scant README.md file at the top
> of the sources. There is an entire generation of developers who see
> little value in producing (and using) online documentation, where by
> online I mean manpage-like or info-like docs. For the simple reason
> that the main way in which documentation is produced and distributed
> has changed a lot in the last 25 years. Now it's all about googling
> the right words, unfortunately.
>
> We can keep blaming RMS, info, or the GNU project, but indeed blaming
> them for the Web would be a bit too much ;)
>
> And this is perhaps becoming OT anyway.
>
> HND
>
> Enzo Nicosia
Well, maybe we're just violently agreeing. Again, while I think that
info is klunky-feeling, my issue is the ecosystem fragmentation.
I think that it's not our place to discuss cat as Rob is on the list
and he owns that :-)
I do agree that the utter lack of any documentation is a bigger problem.
Or worse, the document that says how to download, build, and install a
package without ever saying what it does or how to use it.
I'm not blaming RMS or GNU, I'm just using them as examples of a way of
doing things that I don't like. I certainly don't blame them for the web.
Please let's not get started on that!
Jon
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2019-09-16 18:19 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 134+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2019-09-13 3:20 [TUHS] My EuroBSDcon talk (preview for commentary) Warner Losh
2019-09-13 9:03 ` Branden Robinson
2019-09-13 19:47 ` Clem Cole
2019-09-13 20:02 ` Clem Cole
2019-09-13 20:06 ` Clem Cole
2019-09-13 20:24 ` Jon Steinhart
2019-09-13 20:43 ` Clem Cole
2019-09-13 20:53 ` Diomidis Spinellis
2019-09-13 21:45 ` Clem Cole
2019-09-13 22:13 ` [TUHS] earliest Unix roff Warren Toomey
2019-09-13 22:55 ` Clem Cole
2019-09-14 2:02 ` Larry McVoy
2019-09-14 2:44 ` Warren Toomey
2019-09-15 2:56 ` U'll Be King of the Stars
2019-09-15 6:54 ` arnold
2019-09-15 7:01 ` Dave Horsfall
2019-09-15 16:17 ` Jon Steinhart
2019-09-15 17:23 ` Ronald Natalie
2019-09-15 19:48 ` Clem Cole
2019-09-15 21:16 ` Dave Horsfall
2019-09-15 7:32 ` U'll Be King of the Stars
2019-09-15 7:46 ` arnold
2019-09-15 19:37 ` Clem Cole
2019-09-16 5:52 ` arnold
2019-09-16 12:10 ` Clem Cole
2019-09-16 12:26 ` Lars Brinkhoff
2019-09-16 13:42 ` Clem Cole
2019-09-16 14:54 ` Larry McVoy
2019-09-16 16:09 ` Paul Winalski
2019-09-16 22:05 ` Dave Horsfall
2019-09-16 22:33 ` reed
2019-09-17 0:11 ` Dave Horsfall
2019-09-17 0:02 ` Nemo Nusquam
2019-09-17 0:21 ` Arthur Krewat
2019-09-17 11:12 ` Thomas Paulsen
2019-09-17 0:46 ` Clem Cole
2019-09-16 13:13 ` Chet Ramey
2019-09-16 14:51 ` Larry McVoy
2019-09-16 14:57 ` Clem Cole
2019-09-16 15:14 ` Richard Salz
2019-09-16 15:48 ` Ronald Natalie
2019-09-16 16:10 ` Larry McVoy
2019-09-16 16:16 ` Jon Steinhart
2019-09-16 16:26 ` Larry McVoy
2019-09-16 16:31 ` Richard Salz
2019-09-16 16:45 ` Larry McVoy
2019-09-16 17:19 ` KatolaZ
2019-09-16 17:24 ` Larry McVoy
2019-09-16 17:32 ` Jon Steinhart
2019-09-16 17:35 ` Clem Cole
2019-09-16 17:37 ` Jon Steinhart
2019-09-16 18:09 ` [TUHS] [OT] " KatolaZ
2019-09-16 18:19 ` Jon Steinhart [this message]
2019-09-16 18:04 ` [TUHS] " Chet Ramey
2019-09-16 18:19 ` KatolaZ
2019-09-16 23:24 ` Dave Horsfall
2019-09-16 17:24 ` Clem Cole
2019-09-16 17:00 ` Clem Cole
2019-09-17 11:20 ` Thomas Paulsen
2019-09-16 19:13 ` Steffen Nurpmeso
2019-09-16 19:31 ` Bakul Shah
2019-09-16 22:35 ` Dave Horsfall
2019-09-17 7:53 ` arnold
2019-09-17 14:21 ` Clem Cole
2019-09-17 15:03 ` arnold
2019-09-17 15:58 ` Christopher Browne
2019-09-17 18:15 ` arnold
2019-09-17 18:32 ` Warner Losh
2019-09-18 0:42 ` Adam Thornton
2019-09-16 21:42 ` Dave Horsfall
2019-09-16 21:48 ` Larry McVoy
2019-09-16 21:54 ` Jon Steinhart
2019-09-16 21:59 ` Larry McVoy
2019-09-17 5:07 ` Lars Brinkhoff
2019-09-16 22:10 ` Bakul Shah
2019-09-17 0:16 ` Greg 'groggy' Lehey
2019-09-17 0:31 ` Jon Steinhart
2019-09-17 12:20 ` David
2019-10-05 19:44 ` Michael Parson
2019-09-15 19:35 ` Clem Cole
2019-09-15 20:49 ` U'll Be King of the Stars
2019-09-16 6:20 ` arnold
2019-09-16 12:13 ` Clem Cole
2019-09-16 12:34 ` arnold
2019-09-16 14:52 ` Larry McVoy
2019-09-17 0:10 ` [TUHS] O'Reilly groff macros (was: earliest Unix roff) Greg 'groggy' Lehey
2019-09-17 0:51 ` Clem Cole
2019-09-17 0:54 ` [TUHS] O'Reilly groff macros U'll Be King of the Stars
2019-09-17 1:03 ` Clem Cole
2019-09-17 1:41 ` Greg 'groggy' Lehey
2019-09-17 1:58 ` Clem cole
2019-09-15 19:27 ` [TUHS] earliest Unix roff Clem Cole
2019-09-15 19:31 ` Jon Steinhart
2019-09-14 7:35 ` [TUHS] My EuroBSDcon talk (preview for commentary) Diomidis Spinellis
2019-09-13 21:31 ` Clem Cole
2019-09-17 19:29 ` Warner Losh
2019-09-17 20:17 ` Clem Cole
2019-09-17 19:18 ` Warner Losh
2019-09-17 20:13 ` Clem Cole
2019-09-13 20:06 ` Larry McVoy
2019-09-14 6:13 ` Wesley Parish
2019-09-15 21:46 ` Clem Cole
2019-09-15 23:25 ` Bakul Shah
2019-09-15 23:35 ` Clem cole
2019-09-16 1:42 ` Warner Losh
2019-09-16 1:52 ` Clem cole
2019-09-16 2:05 ` George Michaelson
2019-09-16 2:37 ` Bakul Shah
2019-09-16 3:29 ` [TUHS] INed/Rand Editor/Ned [was " Charles H. Sauer
2019-09-16 14:53 ` Clem Cole
2019-09-16 16:16 ` Warner Losh
2019-09-16 20:21 ` G. Branden Robinson
2019-09-16 20:47 ` Jon Steinhart
2019-09-16 22:33 ` George Michaelson
2019-09-16 23:14 ` G. Branden Robinson
2019-10-09 1:10 ` Lyndon Nerenberg
2019-09-16 22:48 ` [TUHS] better ways and termcap vs. terminfo " G. Branden Robinson
2019-09-17 11:46 ` [TUHS] INed/Rand Editor/Ned [was Re: My EuroBSDcon talk (preview " Theodore Y. Ts'o
2019-09-17 12:52 ` G. Branden Robinson
2019-10-09 0:38 ` Lyndon Nerenberg
2019-09-16 1:31 ` [TUHS] " William Pechter
2019-09-16 1:48 ` Clem cole
2019-09-16 2:24 ` Dave Horsfall
2019-09-16 2:31 ` Toby Thain
2019-09-16 3:36 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o
2019-09-19 18:50 [TUHS] [OT] Re: earliest Unix roff Norman Wilson
2019-09-19 19:00 ` Nemo Nusquam
2019-09-19 20:18 ` Larry McVoy
2019-09-19 20:33 ` Arthur Krewat
2019-09-19 20:39 ` Jon Steinhart
2019-09-19 21:46 ` Steve Nickolas
2019-09-19 21:51 ` Larry McVoy
2019-09-19 22:44 ` Rob Pike
2019-09-19 21:19 Norman Wilson
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