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From: Jon Steinhart <jon@fourwinds.com>
To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society <tuhs@tuhs.org>
Subject: Re: [TUHS] [OT] Re:  earliest Unix roff
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2019 11:19:09 -0700	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <201909161819.x8GIJ9Om014429@darkstar.fourwinds.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20190916180942.qlipaxn4hq7of3kd@unixfarts.net>

KatolaZ writes:
> Dear Jon, I am a child of the 70s, so I know the drill ;)
>
> What I am saying is that the vast majority of the software from the
> GNU project actually has a good-quality manpage acoompanying it. And
> it also has the same documentation in info format. Hence I see no
> point in vomiting on info (which I mostly dislike anyway, as I said),
> as on any other document format, as long as the same information is
> made available via manpages as well, as it is the case for most of the
> software present in current Unix systems, wherever it comes from. The
> split caused by the introduction of info has mainly been cured by the
> community, maybe too late, but still.
>
> We can discuss whether the split was necessary or "right" in the first
> instance, as we could discuss whether it was good or not for cat(1) to
> leave Murray Hill in 1979 with no options and come back from Berkley
> with a source code doubled in size and 9 options in 1982. We could do
> that, but perhaps we shouldn't get too partisan, since the history of
> Unix is not a simple single-threaded and linear one, as the many
> insightful contributions posted in this ML show. It's a continuum,
> where it is difficult to find any single element which is totally
> right or totally wrong.
>
> I honestly see more danger in the recent trend that avoids
> documentation altogether, except for a scant README.md file at the top
> of the sources. There is an entire generation of developers who see
> little value in producing (and using) online documentation, where by
> online I mean manpage-like or info-like docs. For the simple reason
> that the main way in which documentation is produced and distributed
> has changed a lot in the last 25 years. Now it's all about googling
> the right words, unfortunately.
>
> We can keep blaming RMS, info, or the GNU project, but indeed blaming
> them for the Web would be a bit too much ;)
>
> And this is perhaps becoming OT anyway.
>
> HND
>
> Enzo Nicosia

Well, maybe we're just violently agreeing.  Again, while I think that
info is klunky-feeling, my issue is the ecosystem fragmentation.

I think that it's not our place to discuss cat as Rob is on the list
and he owns that :-)

I do agree that the utter lack of any documentation is a bigger problem.
Or worse, the document that says how to download, build, and install a
package without ever saying what it does or how to use it.

I'm not blaming RMS or GNU, I'm just using them as examples of a way of
doing things that I don't like.  I certainly don't blame them for the web.
Please let's not get started on that!

Jon

  reply	other threads:[~2019-09-16 18:19 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 134+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2019-09-13  3:20 [TUHS] My EuroBSDcon talk (preview for commentary) Warner Losh
2019-09-13  9:03 ` Branden Robinson
2019-09-13 19:47 ` Clem Cole
2019-09-13 20:02   ` Clem Cole
2019-09-13 20:06     ` Clem Cole
2019-09-13 20:24       ` Jon Steinhart
2019-09-13 20:43         ` Clem Cole
2019-09-13 20:53           ` Diomidis Spinellis
2019-09-13 21:45             ` Clem Cole
2019-09-13 22:13               ` [TUHS] earliest Unix roff Warren Toomey
2019-09-13 22:55                 ` Clem Cole
2019-09-14  2:02                   ` Larry McVoy
2019-09-14  2:44                     ` Warren Toomey
2019-09-15  2:56                       ` U'll Be King of the Stars
2019-09-15  6:54                         ` arnold
2019-09-15  7:01                           ` Dave Horsfall
2019-09-15 16:17                             ` Jon Steinhart
2019-09-15 17:23                               ` Ronald Natalie
2019-09-15 19:48                             ` Clem Cole
2019-09-15 21:16                               ` Dave Horsfall
2019-09-15  7:32                           ` U'll Be King of the Stars
2019-09-15  7:46                             ` arnold
2019-09-15 19:37                           ` Clem Cole
2019-09-16  5:52                             ` arnold
2019-09-16 12:10                               ` Clem Cole
2019-09-16 12:26                                 ` Lars Brinkhoff
2019-09-16 13:42                                   ` Clem Cole
2019-09-16 14:54                                     ` Larry McVoy
2019-09-16 16:09                                     ` Paul Winalski
2019-09-16 22:05                                     ` Dave Horsfall
2019-09-16 22:33                                       ` reed
2019-09-17  0:11                                         ` Dave Horsfall
2019-09-17  0:02                                       ` Nemo Nusquam
2019-09-17  0:21                                         ` Arthur Krewat
2019-09-17 11:12                                         ` Thomas Paulsen
2019-09-17  0:46                                       ` Clem Cole
2019-09-16 13:13                                 ` Chet Ramey
2019-09-16 14:51                                 ` Larry McVoy
2019-09-16 14:57                                   ` Clem Cole
2019-09-16 15:14                                     ` Richard Salz
2019-09-16 15:48                                       ` Ronald Natalie
2019-09-16 16:10                                       ` Larry McVoy
2019-09-16 16:16                                         ` Jon Steinhart
2019-09-16 16:26                                           ` Larry McVoy
2019-09-16 16:31                                             ` Richard Salz
2019-09-16 16:45                                               ` Larry McVoy
2019-09-16 17:19                                                 ` KatolaZ
2019-09-16 17:24                                                   ` Larry McVoy
2019-09-16 17:32                                                     ` Jon Steinhart
2019-09-16 17:35                                                     ` Clem Cole
2019-09-16 17:37                                                   ` Jon Steinhart
2019-09-16 18:09                                                     ` [TUHS] [OT] " KatolaZ
2019-09-16 18:19                                                       ` Jon Steinhart [this message]
2019-09-16 18:04                                                   ` [TUHS] " Chet Ramey
2019-09-16 18:19                                                     ` KatolaZ
2019-09-16 23:24                                                     ` Dave Horsfall
2019-09-16 17:24                                                 ` Clem Cole
2019-09-16 17:00                                               ` Clem Cole
2019-09-17 11:20                                         ` Thomas Paulsen
2019-09-16 19:13                                       ` Steffen Nurpmeso
2019-09-16 19:31                                       ` Bakul Shah
2019-09-16 22:35                                     ` Dave Horsfall
2019-09-17  7:53                                   ` arnold
2019-09-17 14:21                                     ` Clem Cole
2019-09-17 15:03                                       ` arnold
2019-09-17 15:58                                     ` Christopher Browne
2019-09-17 18:15                                       ` arnold
2019-09-17 18:32                                         ` Warner Losh
2019-09-18  0:42                                         ` Adam Thornton
2019-09-16 21:42                                 ` Dave Horsfall
2019-09-16 21:48                                   ` Larry McVoy
2019-09-16 21:54                                     ` Jon Steinhart
2019-09-16 21:59                                       ` Larry McVoy
2019-09-17  5:07                                         ` Lars Brinkhoff
2019-09-16 22:10                                       ` Bakul Shah
2019-09-17  0:16                                   ` Greg 'groggy' Lehey
2019-09-17  0:31                                     ` Jon Steinhart
2019-09-17 12:20                                     ` David
2019-10-05 19:44                                 ` Michael Parson
2019-09-15 19:35                         ` Clem Cole
2019-09-15 20:49                           ` U'll Be King of the Stars
2019-09-16  6:20                             ` arnold
2019-09-16 12:13                               ` Clem Cole
2019-09-16 12:34                                 ` arnold
2019-09-16 14:52                                 ` Larry McVoy
2019-09-17  0:10                               ` [TUHS] O'Reilly groff macros (was: earliest Unix roff) Greg 'groggy' Lehey
2019-09-17  0:51                                 ` Clem Cole
2019-09-17  0:54                                   ` [TUHS] O'Reilly groff macros U'll Be King of the Stars
2019-09-17  1:03                                     ` Clem Cole
2019-09-17  1:41                                     ` Greg 'groggy' Lehey
2019-09-17  1:58                                       ` Clem cole
2019-09-15 19:27                       ` [TUHS] earliest Unix roff Clem Cole
2019-09-15 19:31                         ` Jon Steinhart
2019-09-14  7:35               ` [TUHS] My EuroBSDcon talk (preview for commentary) Diomidis Spinellis
2019-09-13 21:31       ` Clem Cole
2019-09-17 19:29         ` Warner Losh
2019-09-17 20:17           ` Clem Cole
2019-09-17 19:18       ` Warner Losh
2019-09-17 20:13         ` Clem Cole
2019-09-13 20:06     ` Larry McVoy
2019-09-14  6:13   ` Wesley Parish
2019-09-15 21:46 ` Clem Cole
2019-09-15 23:25   ` Bakul Shah
2019-09-15 23:35     ` Clem cole
2019-09-16  1:42     ` Warner Losh
2019-09-16  1:52       ` Clem cole
2019-09-16  2:05         ` George Michaelson
2019-09-16  2:37           ` Bakul Shah
2019-09-16  3:29             ` [TUHS] INed/Rand Editor/Ned [was " Charles H. Sauer
2019-09-16 14:53               ` Clem Cole
2019-09-16 16:16                 ` Warner Losh
2019-09-16 20:21                   ` G. Branden Robinson
2019-09-16 20:47                     ` Jon Steinhart
2019-09-16 22:33                       ` George Michaelson
2019-09-16 23:14                         ` G. Branden Robinson
2019-10-09  1:10                         ` Lyndon Nerenberg
2019-09-16 22:48                       ` [TUHS] better ways and termcap vs. terminfo " G. Branden Robinson
2019-09-17 11:46                     ` [TUHS] INed/Rand Editor/Ned [was Re: My EuroBSDcon talk (preview " Theodore Y. Ts'o
2019-09-17 12:52                       ` G. Branden Robinson
2019-10-09  0:38                   ` Lyndon Nerenberg
2019-09-16  1:31   ` [TUHS] " William Pechter
2019-09-16  1:48     ` Clem cole
2019-09-16  2:24     ` Dave Horsfall
2019-09-16  2:31       ` Toby Thain
2019-09-16  3:36   ` Theodore Y. Ts'o
2019-09-19 18:50 [TUHS] [OT] Re: earliest Unix roff Norman Wilson
2019-09-19 19:00 ` Nemo Nusquam
2019-09-19 20:18   ` Larry McVoy
2019-09-19 20:33     ` Arthur Krewat
2019-09-19 20:39       ` Jon Steinhart
2019-09-19 21:46       ` Steve Nickolas
2019-09-19 21:51         ` Larry McVoy
2019-09-19 22:44 ` Rob Pike
2019-09-19 21:19 Norman Wilson

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