From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id f2de38f9 for ; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 23:14:36 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 672F99BFE7; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 09:14:35 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2719E9479A; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 09:14:12 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="mYUA7/oa"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 9275D9479A; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 09:14:10 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-pg1-f193.google.com (mail-pg1-f193.google.com [209.85.215.193]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BF9CE94794 for ; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 09:14:08 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-pg1-f193.google.com with SMTP id z12so847506pgp.9 for ; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 16:14:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-disposition:in-reply-to:user-agent; bh=41nx9QhM3QioLuWFcBckGekJXcuwaUu9RVcf9l6mfos=; b=mYUA7/oaeV2gCaf8oS6Mnl6wD++Feg1TzWq3xxLc5klp0DIWARDMRFXSrBohCGN3oz /xkqT2jwyuM65akYpqA0qcqUzEiYurmLQlaEs6u7UEneI4W8PHPMNV8WnZUUrc0Ura8P IBIvOeQ1wO5etZo3hBdtC6wDme+OVirr1F3EwAQXcyXqxZIoOwQ7j1KOYVm5MjR87Luz NM902aJfywKXqjYVrQWc7G2tv+S5QZlzUjizR9KxmJ4GJjMKFB1buXxqdFURuee0Zh9t GL082qGYjQ68pM0prYMqTEsNefMdsySR6W8g2UHbJtAVMp7y8pGwKmEshgBqtW/L8dxc QTfQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:subject:message-id:references :mime-version:content-disposition:in-reply-to:user-agent; bh=41nx9QhM3QioLuWFcBckGekJXcuwaUu9RVcf9l6mfos=; b=dbERk9/u+7K4mgi/sjSQi3E94lO1wKdULGbTXF+yVn5mYKn9zo3l7BweCBcO2uj3rN mlHIdQIEeksZfS9QqS1/1MGtdGoM7qFzCrj1bRvEVTRtLKeO2tOo7HhF4UbpOTtkc4Cs IZ2eTBOuVqzi09bimowyBcs2hJEdgRFUwHBaPgmfMZqLWcjXw2ZIAzR3JwPWnF3mOJBt 8dLlzoy784/GDTLEJ7JwOPhCIQvnGCexIrzP75H4FPddKZ7O6NYCV7o36fbf8TZear3o hMq/3yzktw31OOuKgmwkST9A3t2eV7CN/4SKzCjKIPFTPw+7HVzPm+ErdcobZtYsRJ6k zcAw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVV2W4NYvZOsqE6lPqPUW5ekX9v+gRTzkXk5FalHfQ49OBXLA9w eFYYb86dMS1NrSO9hJPRJY4GMwWE X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwTRpV2YgwaTdVv3HKTvrZ4v8UO1qYEwcEJNdKq7uygtBzhsR59Kq1LZpl9MqqjsU/tD0dTnQ== X-Received: by 2002:a63:67c6:: with SMTP id b189mr528067pgc.163.1568675647842; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 16:14:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([1.129.142.182]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g9sm14161pjl.20.2019.09.16.16.14.05 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Mon, 16 Sep 2019 16:14:06 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2019 09:14:02 +1000 From: "G. Branden Robinson" To: tuhs@tuhs.org Message-ID: <20190916231359.bnbefaceyvecglwc@localhost.localdomain> References: <7F62BF6B-8FEA-4C43-9E35-05BDE9BF04EA@ccc.com> <20190916023738.F34E81570CE9@mail.bitblocks.com> <20190916202153.wbpzx3jn3a7rs6kb@localhost.localdomain> <201909162047.x8GKlSbX001635@darkstar.fourwinds.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="srec75vfsb3zoasm" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180716 Subject: Re: [TUHS] INed/Rand Editor/Ned [was Re: My EuroBSDcon talk (preview for commentary) X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --srec75vfsb3zoasm Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At 2019-09-17T08:33:29+1000, George Michaelson wrote: > On Tue, Sep 17, 2019 at 6:47 AM Jon Steinhart wrote: > > > > Since we like debating the merits of old technology, somebody can kick = off > > a termcap versus terminfo discussion :-) > > >=20 > Felt like of-its-time NIH. I certainly would not defend USG on those grounds. Many poor decisions seem to have been taken in the name of attempting to gain a commercial advantage, or of an effort to present the industry with a fait accompli that you just HAD to go along with and therefore HAD to fork over a license fee. This is only my impression from reading histories and retrospectives; I came of age just as the Unix wars were winding down and Microsoft showed that they were the most competitive at being anti-competitive. > Since the codes to drive an ADM5 were the same in either source, and > since the intent was the same, it was just a giant *why* for me. For me, the mnemonic value of the capability names is important, though terminfo didn't leverage that advantage nearly as much as they could and should have. 5 characters was better than 2 but still too short. And in many cases they just reused the termcap capability names as-is, e.g., 'am', 'll'. But one example is enough to point up the advantage. By what name do you look up the "bold" capability? In terminfo, it's called...'bold'. In termcap, what's your bet? 'bd'? Nope. 'bo'? Nope. 'md'. > I didn't get why binary file either. If the cost of reading the > termcap DB was a significant hit on your program, I think you just > proved you were a robot and would be defeated by a captcha. Having to > compile things is a drag. This is an implementation detail that _should_ have been transparent to the user. No one should have needed to care what the on-disk or in-memory representation of the terminal capability list was. But...it was the '80s. My guess is that encapsulation to that degree smacked of object-orientation, possibly, and therefore was always going to be a performance disaster, the same way no one was ever going to need more than 640KiB or how microkernels were always going to be slow at context-switching. Or maybe it just came down to lazy implementation. > It was probably a side effect of the sequence of universities and > institutions I worked at (York, Leeds, York, UCL, CSIRO, UQ) that they > were almost exclusively v7->32V->BSD->SunOS shops and so the emergence > of SYSV was basically occluded to me, and so SYSV-isms (with the > exception of RFS and the pre-gnu getopt() which leaked into UUCP > newsgroups I read somehow). >=20 > Terminfo just didn't feel very *relevant* Yes--what good ideas AT&T commercial Unix had, they seemed determined to ensure people never found out about except via capture of standards bodies followed by mandatory licensing. To me this would explain the reasoning behind the Sun/AT&T corrupt bargain that led to Solaris (of which Larry has written here). People were enthusiastic about SunOS. Obviously the thing to do with such an enthusiastic user base is buy access to it and force them to eat whatever you feed them. They will remin your thralls and sing your praises for free, because all consumer preferences are ultimately mindless questions of fashion. Worked brilliantly, didn't it? It can. If you're Steve Jobs. Regards, Branden --srec75vfsb3zoasm Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEh3PWHWjjDgcrENwa0Z6cfXEmbc4FAl2AFy4ACgkQ0Z6cfXEm bc6vgxAAlm8KLfCsSSnXcmebFiHfXmGVI4lE+KLRw9KnXCUayIWw/qcfb1QFAneU 25RSyewETn2UuiV7wDtJFqGW7IDEtPf+69B4Uoet1FkdXjTVvG23+u8aGcQNcAv9 XMQaj87eQJ+1T8iqioldDZiwBfkqfliAmq/vr6p93JX5eXfYJEeDYJXmcE946HTe DjSZ7Z1/gYbQBo6oYeWIsJD3AWynwOky8s1n/BEtTTH4OR1/qUkXNd2Hv5VC90ZB uzmj64VBi3cYpnblehcR59BFgxe4eGRABXdQslJAmYNI4+1T2TQiB7MBzdFV9Eeu WSyZtMCPd+4i48ssWXecs9TmrsnNBsgtSJnOVyWS0zMWY/cZH5tETW+dYiwTe/Nm mT5y1cAuTmfTEGQ7gv9tNQN6OPxBJUxC9Y6juZJdtEXGzjpcPATlC9dIcqkMQyOx t8gK66qpOHyCkdzrwzrAhU/9VPi0eUXgit6WvmRZs3tryWiRCCWMOHGQFdZ3EPVs zc2x/W2UyGLDebmUFBt2hgbEtyhoJ7NWZlh0jqxAvSBAiMtKqt6xkjbHklwLWntz kNNa9smMMLvX30G8MzkseelXeL8JQCSjrbFODsGnqEUEVl1mFnwvXfoc4SxRchpG u4WlTHqQvT7DQmTUZQgSxoduou5S23x9wfY+2RNaMxsnjLzdhjo= =EQXC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --srec75vfsb3zoasm--