* Re: [TUHS] UNIX Backslash History
@ 2019-10-27 21:31 Noel Chiappa
2019-10-27 21:51 ` Charles Anthony
0 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread
From: Noel Chiappa @ 2019-10-27 21:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: tuhs; +Cc: jnc
> From: Charles Anthony
> /home/CAnthony
I think it was >user_dir_dir>Group>User, wasn't it? I seem to remember my
homedir on MIT-Multics was >udd>CSR>JNChiappa?
And I wonder if the 'dd' directory on PDP-7 Unix owe anything to 'udd'?
Getting back to the original query, I'm wondering if '/' was picked
as it wasn't shifted, unlike '>'?
Noel
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] UNIX Backslash History
2019-10-27 21:31 [TUHS] UNIX Backslash History Noel Chiappa
@ 2019-10-27 21:51 ` Charles Anthony
0 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread
From: Charles Anthony @ 2019-10-27 21:51 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Noel Chiappa; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society
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On Sun, Oct 27, 2019 at 2:31 PM Noel Chiappa <jnc@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
wrote:
> > From: Charles Anthony
>
> > /home/CAnthony
>
> I think it was >user_dir_dir>Group>User, wasn't it? I seem to remember my
> homedir on MIT-Multics was >udd>CSR>JNChiappa?
>
>
>user_dir_dir>Project>User
>user_dir_dir Home directories of users
>daemon_dir_dir Home directories of daemons
>process_dir_dir /proc
"Names" are aliases, similar to soft links; "udd" is a name for
"user_dir_dir" so ">udd" and ">user_dir_dir" point to the same directory.
>user_dir_dir>SysAdmin>admin or >udd>sa>a is ~root/
Circulating back to the original question, backslash is used as an escape
character on Multics. "\f" is end-of-file-ish, used eg to leave input mode
in text editors.
-- Charles
And I wonder if the 'dd' directory on PDP-7 Unix owe anything to 'udd'?
>
> Getting back to the original query, I'm wondering if '/' was picked
> as it wasn't shifted, unlike '>'?
>
> Noel
>
--
X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] UNIX Backslash History
@ 2019-10-28 15:51 Noel Chiappa
0 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread
From: Noel Chiappa @ 2019-10-28 15:51 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: tuhs; +Cc: jnc
> From: Charles Anthony
>> I think it was >user_dir_dir>Group>User, wasn't it?
> user_dir_dir>Project>User
Oh, right. Too many years spent on Unix! :-)
> "Names" are aliases, similar to soft links
I feel like they are more similar to hard links; they belong to a segment, and
if the name is given to another segment, and the original segment has only
that name, it goes away. (See the discussion under "add_name" in the MPM
'Commands and Active Fuinctions'). Also, Multics does real soft links (too),
so names can't be soft links! :-)
Noel
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] UNIX Backslash History
@ 2019-10-27 20:31 Doug McIlroy
2019-10-27 20:42 ` Richard Salz
2019-10-27 20:46 ` Bakul Shah
0 siblings, 2 replies; 17+ messages in thread
From: Doug McIlroy @ 2019-10-27 20:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: tuhs
> What is the special meaning of using / as directory partition in UNIX? And \ as the escape character.
\ came from Multics. The first day Multics ran at Bell Labs Bob Morris
famously typed backslash-newline at the login prompt and crashed the
system.
Multics had a hierarchical file system, too, but I don't recall how
pathnames were punctuated.
Doug
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] UNIX Backslash History
2019-10-27 20:31 Doug McIlroy
@ 2019-10-27 20:42 ` Richard Salz
2019-10-27 20:49 ` Charles Anthony
2019-10-27 20:46 ` Bakul Shah
1 sibling, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread
From: Richard Salz @ 2019-10-27 20:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Doug McIlroy; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society
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>
>
> Multics had a hierarchical file system, too, but I don't recall how
> pathnames were punctuated.
>
>
>
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] UNIX Backslash History
2019-10-27 20:42 ` Richard Salz
@ 2019-10-27 20:49 ` Charles Anthony
2019-10-27 23:01 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
0 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread
From: Charles Anthony @ 2019-10-27 20:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Richard Salz; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society, Doug McIlroy
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On Sun, Oct 27, 2019 at 1:43 PM Richard Salz <rich.salz@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Multics had a hierarchical file system, too, but I don't recall how
>> pathnames were punctuated.
>>
>
> >
>
>>
/home/CAnthony >user_dir_dir>User>CAnthony
../foo <foo
-- Charles
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] UNIX Backslash History
2019-10-27 20:49 ` Charles Anthony
@ 2019-10-27 23:01 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
2019-10-28 1:11 ` Steve Nickolas
0 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread
From: Grant Taylor via TUHS @ 2019-10-27 23:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: tuhs
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On 10/27/19 2:49 PM, Charles Anthony wrote:
> /home/CAnthony >user_dir_dir>User>CAnthony
Is there any relation between Multics' use of ">" as a directory
separator and MS-DOS's default use of ">" at the end of the command prompt?
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] UNIX Backslash History
2019-10-27 23:01 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
@ 2019-10-28 1:11 ` Steve Nickolas
2019-10-28 12:00 ` Michael Kjörling
0 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread
From: Steve Nickolas @ 2019-10-28 1:11 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Grant Taylor; +Cc: tuhs
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On Sun, 27 Oct 2019, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote:
> On 10/27/19 2:49 PM, Charles Anthony wrote:
>> /home/CAnthony >user_dir_dir>User>CAnthony
> Is there any relation between Multics' use of ">" as a directory separator
> and MS-DOS's default use of ">" at the end of the command prompt?
I can't imagine there's any such connection. MS-DOS got it from CP/M,
which didn't even have the concept of subdirectories until after MS-DOS
did.
-uso.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] UNIX Backslash History
2019-10-28 1:11 ` Steve Nickolas
@ 2019-10-28 12:00 ` Michael Kjörling
2019-10-28 13:44 ` Clem Cole
2019-10-28 15:08 ` Steve Nickolas
0 siblings, 2 replies; 17+ messages in thread
From: Michael Kjörling @ 2019-10-28 12:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: tuhs
On 27 Oct 2019 21:11 -0400, from usotsuki@buric.co (Steve Nickolas):
> On Sun, 27 Oct 2019, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote:
>> Is there any relation between Multics' use of ">" as a directory
>> separator and MS-DOS's default use of ">" at the end of the command
>> prompt?
>
> I can't imagine there's any such connection. MS-DOS got it from CP/M, which
> didn't even have the concept of subdirectories until after MS-DOS did.
If there was such a relationship, it would probably make more sense
for the command prompt termination character to be ":", not ">", as
DOS labelled devices as [whatever]: (like "A:" or "NUL:"). So I agree
with Steve; I imagine it's unrelated. They just had to use _something_
as a default to indicate that the computer is waiting for a command,
and ">" is as good a character as any.
In either case, since MS-DOS/PC-DOS did what CP/M already did in that
regard, the question would probably need to be posed to Kildall where
he got it from. Unless Kildall wrote it down, getting a first hand
account on the reasoning behind that particular choice would be...
nontrivial.
--
Michael Kjörling • https://michael.kjorling.se • michael@kjorling.se
“The most dangerous thought that you can have as a creative person
is to think you know what you’re doing.” (Bret Victor)
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] UNIX Backslash History
2019-10-28 12:00 ` Michael Kjörling
@ 2019-10-28 13:44 ` Clem Cole
2019-10-28 15:08 ` Steve Nickolas
1 sibling, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread
From: Clem Cole @ 2019-10-28 13:44 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Michael Kjörling; +Cc: TUHS main list
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On Mon, Oct 28, 2019 at 8:01 AM Michael Kjörling <michael@kjorling.se>
wrote:
> the question would probably need to be posed to Kildall where he got it
> from.
>
Kildall was in record stating that CP/M's model was RT-11, which came from
DOS-11 which came from DOS-8
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] UNIX Backslash History
2019-10-28 12:00 ` Michael Kjörling
2019-10-28 13:44 ` Clem Cole
@ 2019-10-28 15:08 ` Steve Nickolas
2019-10-28 18:47 ` Dave Horsfall
1 sibling, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread
From: Steve Nickolas @ 2019-10-28 15:08 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Michael Kjörling; +Cc: tuhs
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On Mon, 28 Oct 2019, Michael Kjörling wrote:
> On 27 Oct 2019 21:11 -0400, from usotsuki@buric.co (Steve Nickolas):
>>
>> I can't imagine there's any such connection. MS-DOS got it from CP/M, which
>> didn't even have the concept of subdirectories until after MS-DOS did.
>
> If there was such a relationship, it would probably make more sense
> for the command prompt termination character to be ":", not ">", as
> DOS labelled devices as [whatever]: (like "A:" or "NUL:"). So I agree
> with Steve; I imagine it's unrelated. They just had to use _something_
> as a default to indicate that the computer is waiting for a command,
> and ">" is as good a character as any.
86-DOS actually did use ":" as a prompt character. This was changed for
IBM's release, for some clone releases, and for MS-DOS 2.0.
-uso.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] UNIX Backslash History
2019-10-28 15:08 ` Steve Nickolas
@ 2019-10-28 18:47 ` Dave Horsfall
2019-10-28 20:43 ` Paul Winalski
0 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread
From: Dave Horsfall @ 2019-10-28 18:47 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society; +Cc: Computer Old Farts Followers
On Mon, 28 Oct 2019, Steve Nickolas wrote:
> 86-DOS actually did use ":" as a prompt character. This was changed for
> IBM's release, for some clone releases, and for MS-DOS 2.0.
The best I've ever seen was RT-11's "." - talk about minimalist...
Actually this thread probably belongs on COFF by now.
-- Dave
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] UNIX Backslash History
2019-10-28 18:47 ` Dave Horsfall
@ 2019-10-28 20:43 ` Paul Winalski
0 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread
From: Paul Winalski @ 2019-10-28 20:43 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Dave Horsfall
Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society, Computer Old Farts Followers
On 10/28/19, Dave Horsfall <dave@horsfall.org> wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Oct 2019, Steve Nickolas wrote:
>
>> 86-DOS actually did use ":" as a prompt character. This was changed for
>> IBM's release, for some clone releases, and for MS-DOS 2.0.
>
> The best I've ever seen was RT-11's "." - talk about minimalist...
>
> Actually this thread probably belongs on COFF by now.
RT-11 was following standard DEC practice by using "." as its command
prompt. The "monitor dot" was the command prompt in both TOPS-10 and
TOPS-20.
Most DEC operating systems, including RT-11, TOPS-10/20, and VMS, used
"/" as a prefix on command options; "-" performs this function on UNIX
since "/" is the directory delimiter. Back in the days of stand-alone
programs, physical switches on the console were used to set program
options. This of course won't work when you have multiprogramming. I
was told that DEC chose "/" because it looks like a toggle switch.
Command options in fact were initially called "switches".
-Paul W.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] UNIX Backslash History
2019-10-27 20:31 Doug McIlroy
2019-10-27 20:42 ` Richard Salz
@ 2019-10-27 20:46 ` Bakul Shah
2019-10-28 17:36 ` Anthony Martin
1 sibling, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread
From: Bakul Shah @ 2019-10-27 20:46 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: tuhs
On Sun, 27 Oct 2019 16:31:28 -0400 Doug McIlroy <doug@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
> > What is the special meaning of using / as directory partition in UNIX? And
> \ as the escape character.
>
> \ came from Multics. The first day Multics ran at Bell Labs Bob Morris
> famously typed backslash-newline at the login prompt and crashed the
> system.
>
> Multics had a hierarchical file system, too, but I don't recall how
> pathnames were punctuated.
From what I read:
>dir1>dir2>file1 -- absolute: /dir1/di2/file1
file1 -- relative: if >dir1>dir2 is the working dir
<file2 -- relative: ../file2 == >dir1>file2
<dir3>file4 -- ../dir3/file3
<<dir4>file5 -- ../../dir4/file5 == >dir4>file5
<< is more compact thant ../.. and I like the vertical symmetry of < and >!
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] UNIX Backslash History
2019-10-27 20:46 ` Bakul Shah
@ 2019-10-28 17:36 ` Anthony Martin
2019-10-28 18:17 ` Charles Anthony
0 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread
From: Anthony Martin @ 2019-10-28 17:36 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Bakul Shah; +Cc: tuhs
Bakul Shah <bakul@bitblocks.com> once said:
> >dir1>dir2>file1 -- absolute: /dir1/di2/file1
> file1 -- relative: if >dir1>dir2 is the working dir
> <file2 -- relative: ../file2 == >dir1>file2
> <dir3>file4 -- ../dir3/file3
> <<dir4>file5 -- ../../dir4/file5 == >dir4>file5
>
> << is more compact thant ../.. and I like the vertical symmetry of < and >!
"Getting Less Than Right" would have been an
interesting title. ;)
Unix uses dot for the current directory. Was
there any notation for this in Multics?
Anthony
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] UNIX Backslash History
@ 2019-10-26 9:39 Caipenghui
0 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread
From: Caipenghui @ 2019-10-26 9:39 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: TUHS main list
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Hello everyone,
What is the special meaning of using / as directory partition in UNIX? And \ as the escape character.
Caipenghui
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
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2019-10-27 21:31 [TUHS] UNIX Backslash History Noel Chiappa
2019-10-27 21:51 ` Charles Anthony
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2019-10-28 15:51 Noel Chiappa
2019-10-27 20:31 Doug McIlroy
2019-10-27 20:42 ` Richard Salz
2019-10-27 20:49 ` Charles Anthony
2019-10-27 23:01 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
2019-10-28 1:11 ` Steve Nickolas
2019-10-28 12:00 ` Michael Kjörling
2019-10-28 13:44 ` Clem Cole
2019-10-28 15:08 ` Steve Nickolas
2019-10-28 18:47 ` Dave Horsfall
2019-10-28 20:43 ` Paul Winalski
2019-10-27 20:46 ` Bakul Shah
2019-10-28 17:36 ` Anthony Martin
2019-10-28 18:17 ` Charles Anthony
2019-10-26 9:39 Caipenghui
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