From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id f97018f8 for ; Wed, 13 Nov 2019 18:03:22 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id A7A0C9C115; Thu, 14 Nov 2019 04:03:21 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CAF593D97; Thu, 14 Nov 2019 04:02:48 +1000 (AEST) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 90F739B5A3; Thu, 14 Nov 2019 04:02:45 +1000 (AEST) Received: from darkstar.fourwinds.com (fourwinds.com [63.64.179.162]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C45A893D97 for ; Thu, 14 Nov 2019 04:02:44 +1000 (AEST) Received: from darkstar.fourwinds.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkstar.fourwinds.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id xADI2gw8752083 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 13 Nov 2019 10:02:42 -0800 Received: from darkstar.fourwinds.com (jon@localhost) by darkstar.fourwinds.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id xADI2fxE752068 for ; Wed, 13 Nov 2019 10:02:42 -0800 Message-Id: <201911131802.xADI2fxE752068@darkstar.fourwinds.com> From: Jon Steinhart To: tuhs@tuhs.org In-reply-to: <201911130735.xAD7ZQD6014497@freefriends.org> References: <1573592179.5935.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org> <201911130735.xAD7ZQD6014497@freefriends.org> Comments: In-reply-to arnold@skeeve.com message dated "Wed, 13 Nov 2019 00:35:26 -0700." MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <752066.1573668156.1@darkstar.fourwinds.com> Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 10:02:36 -0800 X-JON-SPAM: local delivery Subject: Re: [TUHS] Happy birthday Morris worm [ really programming education ] X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" arnold@skeeve.com writes: > Norman Wilson wrote: > > > I am very disappointed that programming education seems not to care > > enough about this sort of thing, even today. > > I think this is the key. Universities focus (too much?) on the theory > and not enough on the practice, and "learn how to program" courses > and books focus on the mechanics (syntax, semantics) and not enough > (or at all) on the practicum of writing code well. > > We continue to rely on the school of hard knocks, and we continue > to pay for this reliance. > > I also think there's a sliding scale. The fancier or higher-end > the university, the more the focus on theory, and vice versa. Sigh. > > Arnold OK, this is a bit of a tangential topic for this list. But, what's the point of obsessing on UNIX history unless it's coupled with some effort to communicate the philosophy to a new generation of programmers? This has been a real concern of mine for a while. As a friend of mine put it, processors are getting so cheap that pretty soon we won't be able to purchase pencils that don't contain them. This puts us all at the mercy of not-great programmers. And of course, it's not just pencils, it's stuff like airplanes too. In my opinion, the root of the problem is that programming today is being taught in the abstract - as if programs don't run on computers. Programming today is taught as if it consists of importing libraries and gluing function calls together. I recently visited my daughter's college and attended a number of CS related presentations. Was surprised that CS is taught in Java with some advanced work in Python. One can almost get a CS degree there without ever using a compiler much less learning how computers function. Too be fair, other schools such as Dartmouth where Doug hangs out have a better curriculum. At the K-12 level, the stage is set by combination of the "everybody must learn to code" curriculum with "no child left behind". School administrators dispense with any critical thinking about the value of the curriculum in order to chase grant dollars. I used to be able to get into my local schools to volunteer-teach programming. But, the learn to code curriculum has eclipsed that; schools are led to believe that they're teaching the right stuff (because Bill Gates says so) and aren't interested in anything else. I recently turned my course notes into a book as an attempt to make some small difference. Too soon to tell if it will. Anyway, my question for you all is, how do we as seasoned practitioners leverage our experience to contribute to the state of the art? Any of you found a way to pass on your knowledge? BTW, I'm doing my first messing around with the Linux kernel these days; if anyone knows the guts of the generic filesystem code I could use a bit of help. Here's something that I came across on the way in : enum { MS_RDONLY = 1, /* Mount read-only. */ #define MS_RDONLY MS_RDONLY MS_NOSUID = 2, /* Ignore suid and sgid bits. */ #define MS_NOSUID MS_NOSUID MS_NODEV = 4, /* Disallow access to device special files. */ #define MS_NODEV MS_NODEV ... }; Can anyone explain the value of this programming style? Is this just an example of the result of how programming is taught today? Be happy discuss this off-list. Jon