From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id d01377b2 for ; Fri, 15 Nov 2019 23:59:31 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 8753393DAA; Sat, 16 Nov 2019 09:59:30 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC71C93DA9; Sat, 16 Nov 2019 09:59:10 +1000 (AEST) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id DBF0293DA9; Sat, 16 Nov 2019 09:59:09 +1000 (AEST) Received: from outgoing.mit.edu (outgoing-auth-1.mit.edu [18.9.28.11]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2913593D9E for ; Sat, 16 Nov 2019 09:59:09 +1000 (AEST) Received: from callcc.thunk.org (guestnat-104-133-0-98.corp.google.com [104.133.0.98] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) (User authenticated as tytso@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by outgoing.mit.edu (8.14.7/8.12.4) with ESMTP id xAFNx2ti022638 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Fri, 15 Nov 2019 18:59:03 -0500 Received: by callcc.thunk.org (Postfix, from userid 15806) id 0C55E4202FD; Fri, 15 Nov 2019 18:59:02 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 18:59:02 -0500 From: "Theodore Y. Ts'o" To: Adam Thornton Message-ID: <20191115235902.GA18146@mit.edu> References: <1573592179.5935.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org> <201911130735.xAD7ZQD6014497@freefriends.org> <201911131802.xADI2fxE752068@darkstar.fourwinds.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.12.2 (2019-09-21) Subject: Re: [TUHS] Happy birthday Morris worm [ really programming education ] X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" On Fri, Nov 15, 2019 at 05:49:29PM -0500, Adam Thornton wrote: > > The other part: it’s historically been a crap shoot whether the CS > department at any given place came out of EE, in which case it was the > bottom-up here’s a transistor, and here’s a flip-flop, and, look, logic > gates! Adders! Et cetera, or it came out of the math department and is a > theory-heavy specialization of some very particular parts of discrete > mathematics and combinatorics. And neither of these necessarily means that a person with CS undergraduate degree will necessarily have a strong OS / Systems background. I remember running out of undergraduate CS classes at MIT, so I started taking the graduate level classes --- and was astounded when a first year graduate student raised their hand and asked, "What's Virtual Memory"? Turns out she came from a highly math-centric program, and it was simply never covered --- which is why the first level intro CS class, even at the graduate level, couldn't make any assumptions about what admitted graduate students might have as their background. On the flip side, I remember talking to someone who had their CS undergraduate program from the UK, and he was astounded that we didn't cover type functions and type theory as part of MIT's undergraduate CS program. (It's covered in a graduate level class, and most undergrads wouldn't have taken it.) So the fundamental issue is there is no real consensus about what must be in a CS undergraduate degree program. It used to be one of my favorite interview questions required that as part of answer, to implement the moral equivalent of itoa(). What floored me was how many interviewees with a 4 year CS degree program under their belt foundered on what was supposed to be the warmup, "just checking to make sure you know how to program" part of the problem. - Ted