From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 2d960278 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2020 22:26:05 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 0A7E29BDAF; Mon, 13 Jan 2020 08:26:04 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 022A39BD0F; Mon, 13 Jan 2020 08:25:43 +1000 (AEST) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 525749BD0F; Mon, 13 Jan 2020 08:25:41 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (mail.cs.dartmouth.edu [129.170.212.100]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B7F009BCA8 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2020 08:25:40 +1000 (AEST) Received: from tahoe.cs.Dartmouth.EDU (tahoe.cs.dartmouth.edu [129.170.212.20]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 00CMPc2u2352537 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2020 17:25:38 -0500 Received: from tahoe.cs.Dartmouth.EDU (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by tahoe.cs.Dartmouth.EDU (8.15.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id 00CMPchQ085971 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2020 17:25:38 -0500 Received: (from doug@localhost) by tahoe.cs.Dartmouth.EDU (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id 00CMPc9S085970 for tuhs@tuhs.org; Sun, 12 Jan 2020 17:25:38 -0500 From: Doug McIlroy Message-Id: <202001122225.00CMPc9S085970@tahoe.cs.Dartmouth.EDU> Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2020 17:25:38 -0500 To: tuhs@tuhs.org User-Agent: Heirloom mailx 12.5 7/5/10 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [TUHS] Tech Sq elevator (Was: screen editors) X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" >> After scrolling through the command list, I wondered how >> long it was and asked to have it counted. Easy, I thought, >> just pass it to a wc-like program. But "just pass it" and >> "wc-like" were not givens as they are in Unix culture. >> It took several minutes for the gurus to do it--without >> leaving emacs, if I remember right. > This is kind of illustrative of the '60s acid trip that > perpetuates in programming "Everything's a string maaaaan". > The output is seen as truth because the representation is > for some reason too hard to get at or too hard to cascade > through the system. How did strings get into the discussion? Warner showed how emacs could be expected to do the job--and more efficiently than the Unix way, at that: (list-length (command-list-fn)). The surprise was that this wasn't readily available. Back then, in fact, you couldn't ask sh for its command list. help|wc couldn't be done because help wasn't there. Emacs had a different problem. It had a universal internal interface--lists rather than strings--yet did not have a way to cause this particular list to "cascade through the system". (print(command-list-fn)) was provided, while (command-list-fn) was hidden. Doug