Re: [TUHS] Early Linux and BSD (was: On the origins of Linux - "an academic question")

Re: [TUHS] Early Linux and BSD (was: On the origins of Linux - "an academic question")

[Noel Chiappa]

    > If you search for "Jolitz"

Oh, I meant in the DDJ search box, not a general Web search.

    > One of the items listed in WP, "Copyright, Copyleft, and Competitive
    > Advantage" (Apr/1991) wasn't in the search results .. Since it's not in
    > the 'releases' page, it might not really be part of the series?

Also, the last article in the series ("The Final Step") says the series was 17
articles long, not the 18 you get if you include "Copyright".

	 Noel

Re: [TUHS] Early Linux and BSD (was: On the origins of Linux - "an academic question")

[Greg A. Woods]

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At Mon, 20 Jan 2020 10:04:32 -0800, Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:
Subject: Re: [TUHS] Early Linux and BSD (was: On the origins of Linux - "an academic question")
> 
> I know those Nat Semi chips very well, or did at the time.  I so wanted to
> love those chips, the instruction set felt like whoever did the PDP-11
> did the 320xx chips.  But they couldn't produce chips without bugs and
> that killed them.  It's a crying shame, I liked the instruction set
> WAY better than the VAX.  The VAX seemed really messing compared to 
> the PDP-11, the 320xx chips seemed clean.  Might be rose colored 
> glasses but that's my memory.

I held a lot of anticipation for the NS chips as well, and I remember
well excitedly going around to trade shows for a year or two and playing
around with the very few Unix systems based on them that showed up on
occasion.

From what I understand it was really only the original NS32016 that was
too buggy to be trusted.  The NS32032 was a bug-fix release that also
came a full 32-bit external bus, and the NS32532 a while later was quite
a contender at the time in terms of performance (wikipedia says "about
twice as performant as the competing MC68030 and i80386").

In the end though I discovered the ATT 3b2 systems and their also quite
nicely orthogonal WE32000 CPUs (though in the end I never did write more
than a very simple demo program in assembler, just to know I could).  My
copy of the WE32100 Information Manual sits right beside my VAX
Instruction Reference Manual.  Sadly the 3B2s I had were never as
powerful as a PC532 was though -- more like the sluggish i386 and m68k
systems of the day.

-- 
					Greg A. Woods <gwoods@acm.org>

Kelowna, BC     +1 250 762-7675           RoboHack <woods@robohack.ca>
Planix, Inc. <woods@planix.com>     Avoncote Farms <woods@avoncote.ca>

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Re: [TUHS] Early Linux and BSD (was: On the origins of Linux - "an academic question")

[Greg A. Woods]

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At Mon, 20 Jan 2020 17:13:48 -0700, Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:
Subject: Re: [TUHS] Early Linux and BSD (was: On the origins of Linux - "an academic question")
>
> Lots of people were building CVS repos based on the patchkits... Chris
> wasn't trying to start a project, but more was trying to find a way of
> organizing everything that people were working on. At least that's what I
> recall from the rumors I'd heard on campus after Chris visited Boulder...

Indeed, that is no doubt a far more accurate way of stating things.

I was only watching from afar, effectively.

Of course it didn't take too long before he announced 0.8 and made it
all official.

--
					Greg A. Woods <gwoods@acm.org>

Kelowna, BC     +1 250 762-7675           RoboHack <woods@robohack.ca>
Planix, Inc. <woods@planix.com>     Avoncote Farms <woods@avoncote.ca>

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Re: [TUHS] Early Linux and BSD (was: On the origins of Linux - "an academic question")

[Bakul Shah]

On Mon, 20 Jan 2020 12:19:25 -0500 Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:
>
> I bring this all up in hopes to try to close this rat hole of Linux, *vs*.

Ha!

> *BSD.   Like editors, we all have our own favorites.  That's cool, we don't
> want one thing to be forced down our throat.  Having a choice is what is
> good.   And what I value, Larry or Jon may not necessarily like.   Most of
> us if not all on this list probably want something that approximates Ken
> and Dennis's original ideas not what IBM, DEC, CDC were trying to make us
> use in the old days or what Microsoft calls a system today.

I want an *evolution* of their original ideas. Instead we have
significantly more complicated systems which may be more
efficient but certainly a lot more bloaty and less flexible
(with a few exceptions). [Ties in with the single system idea]

> The discussion of how we got there and what people valued at the time is
> useful so we can try to remember the history and learn from it; but getting
> into right/wrong, good/bad, or you could have had this is a tad tiresome;
> IMO.

+1

Re: [TUHS] Early Linux and BSD (was: On the origins of Linux - "an academic question")

[Warner Losh]

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On Mon, Jan 20, 2020, 4:06 PM Greg A. Woods <woods@robohack.ca> wrote:

> At Mon, 20 Jan 2020 14:09:00 -0500, "Theodore Y. Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu>
> wrote:
> Subject: Re: [TUHS] Early Linux and BSD (was: On the origins of Linux -
> "an academic question")
> >
> > On Sun, Jan 19, 2020 at 07:32:57PM -0800, Greg A. Woods wrote:
> > > > Out of curiosity, did the articles contain download information for a
> > > > bootable copy of 386BSD?
> > >
> > > Yes, they did:
> > >
> > >
> https://www.drdobbs.com/porting-unix-to-the-386-the-final-step/184408800
> >
> > .... which is dated July 1992, and describes a "launch" of 386BSD
> > Release 0.0 in March 17, 1992.  This is contemporaneous with Linux
> > 0.95a (which by coincidence was also released on March 17th, 1992.)
>
> Yes, though as I recall all of the articles mentioned that the OS could
> be downloaded, but I pointed at that final article as it was the first
> one in which I found explicit mention of the FTP server name(s).
>
> > The first "real" distribution, the Soft Landing System, was released
> > in May 1992.  (The Manchester Computer Centre distribution in November
> > 1991 was a floppy-based distro containing command-line and development
> > utilities, but not X Windows, so some people don't feel it counts as a
> > full-featured distribution.)
>
> The actual 386bsd Release 0.0 (the one done directly by Bill and Lynne
> Jolitz) announcement is dated "March 7, 1992" according to the first
> post about it on comp.unix.bsd (and according to that announcement there
> was a meeting at Apple in Cupertino (SVNet) on the 11'th where copies of
> the floppies were made available for copying (comp.unix.bsd:
> <2763@tardis.Tymnet.COM>).
>
> Note that according to an article from Unigram ("Issue 396", dated
> August 3-7, 1992, (p)re-posted by Tom Limoncelli in comp.unix.bsd) this
> "386bsd 0.0" was actually a re-write of earlier work to create a "386"
> based release of BSD.  Apparently UCB lawyers asked Jolitz to destroy
> all the initial work done for the release, and he complied and rewrote
> what became 0.0 from scratch again, starting with the plain NET2
> release.  (comp.unix.bsd: <1992Aug1.020513.14170@plts.uucp>)
>
> I would argue that in one way of looking at things NetBSD (and by
> extension FreeBSD) really started with the 0.0 patch kit, and that's
> also dated March 15, 1992 by Chris Demetriou.  I agree though that the
> creation of the first commits in the CVS repository represent a more
> direct reflection of the intent to create a unique thing called NetBSD.
>

Lots of people were building CVS repos based on the patchkits... Chris
wasn't trying to start a project, but more was trying to find a way of
organizing everything that people were working on. At least that's what I
recall from the rumors I'd heard on campus after Chris visited Boulder...

Warner

(On March 13, 1992 there was a post by Mike Stump on comp.unix.bsd
> asking for someone to coordinate patches for 386bsd; and Pace Willisson
> posted the first patch in response on March 14, 1992; and Chris replied
> on the same day saying he would put such patches up on
> agate.berkeley.edu; and the "README.PATCHES" file appeared there on
> March 15, 1992.)
>
> --
>                                         Greg A. Woods <gwoods@acm.org>
>
> Kelowna, BC     +1 250 762-7675           RoboHack <woods@robohack.ca>
> Planix, Inc. <woods@planix.com>     Avoncote Farms <woods@avoncote.ca>
>

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Re: [TUHS] Early Linux and BSD (was: On the origins of Linux - "an academic question")

[Greg A. Woods]

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At Mon, 20 Jan 2020 14:09:00 -0500, "Theodore Y. Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> wrote:
Subject: Re: [TUHS] Early Linux and BSD (was: On the origins of Linux - "an academic question")
>
> On Sun, Jan 19, 2020 at 07:32:57PM -0800, Greg A. Woods wrote:
> > > Out of curiosity, did the articles contain download information for a
> > > bootable copy of 386BSD?
> >
> > Yes, they did:
> >
> >      https://www.drdobbs.com/porting-unix-to-the-386-the-final-step/184408800
>
> .... which is dated July 1992, and describes a "launch" of 386BSD
> Release 0.0 in March 17, 1992.  This is contemporaneous with Linux
> 0.95a (which by coincidence was also released on March 17th, 1992.)

Yes, though as I recall all of the articles mentioned that the OS could
be downloaded, but I pointed at that final article as it was the first
one in which I found explicit mention of the FTP server name(s).

> The first "real" distribution, the Soft Landing System, was released
> in May 1992.  (The Manchester Computer Centre distribution in November
> 1991 was a floppy-based distro containing command-line and development
> utilities, but not X Windows, so some people don't feel it counts as a
> full-featured distribution.)

The actual 386bsd Release 0.0 (the one done directly by Bill and Lynne
Jolitz) announcement is dated "March 7, 1992" according to the first
post about it on comp.unix.bsd (and according to that announcement there
was a meeting at Apple in Cupertino (SVNet) on the 11'th where copies of
the floppies were made available for copying (comp.unix.bsd:
<2763@tardis.Tymnet.COM>).

Note that according to an article from Unigram ("Issue 396", dated
August 3-7, 1992, (p)re-posted by Tom Limoncelli in comp.unix.bsd) this
"386bsd 0.0" was actually a re-write of earlier work to create a "386"
based release of BSD.  Apparently UCB lawyers asked Jolitz to destroy
all the initial work done for the release, and he complied and rewrote
what became 0.0 from scratch again, starting with the plain NET2
release.  (comp.unix.bsd: <1992Aug1.020513.14170@plts.uucp>)

I would argue that in one way of looking at things NetBSD (and by
extension FreeBSD) really started with the 0.0 patch kit, and that's
also dated March 15, 1992 by Chris Demetriou.  I agree though that the
creation of the first commits in the CVS repository represent a more
direct reflection of the intent to create a unique thing called NetBSD.

(On March 13, 1992 there was a post by Mike Stump on comp.unix.bsd
asking for someone to coordinate patches for 386bsd; and Pace Willisson
posted the first patch in response on March 14, 1992; and Chris replied
on the same day saying he would put such patches up on
agate.berkeley.edu; and the "README.PATCHES" file appeared there on
March 15, 1992.)

--
					Greg A. Woods <gwoods@acm.org>

Kelowna, BC     +1 250 762-7675           RoboHack <woods@robohack.ca>
Planix, Inc. <woods@planix.com>     Avoncote Farms <woods@avoncote.ca>

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Re: [TUHS] Early Linux and BSD (was: On the origins of Linux - "an academic question")

[Clem Cole]

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On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 2:47 PM Jon Steinhart <jon@fourwinds.com> wrote:

> I remember it slightly differently than Clem, but close.

Ouch -- I was 1/2 of the Magnolia development team -- I remember a lot
about it!!!
For the curious when bitsavers comes back:   <goog_573452328>
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/tektronix/magnolia/

Roger Bates had just finished the Dorado at PARC.  I had just left CMU.
 We were cubical mates in TekLabs.   Motorola had an experimental chip that
was not yet numbered.   We were given them in the Computer Research group
in Tek Labs. So, we started building a personal computer at night for
ourselves.

Our boss saw the notes and asked what we would do differently if Tek paid
for it.  I was originally using 8" floppies and immediately said 'a real
disk.'   We got a Tek '$10K project' and a few months to build a prototype.
I already had written (well sort of hacked) a simple C compiler based on
Dennis's PDP-11 compiler (when it screwed up it would sometimes include
PDP-11 code - and I never supported FP).   Paul Blattner wrote an assembler
and linker.     Using that, Steve Glaser and I ported UNIX/V7 to it.



> The Magnolia wasn't a UNIX workstation, it was an experimental Smalltalk
> machine.

That was 2+ years later actually.   Once they had the system, a couple of
other folks moved Smalltalk to it.  And in fact, it eventually did release
it as a product called the 4404.




> I don't recall
> much about it, but I don't think that it had to address many of the
> problems
> that UNIX had at the time with the 68000 such as the lack of a MMU.

Be careful... It most definitely did have an MMU, I designed it!!!  The
Xerox Altos and Dorado's never had MMU's.  So Roger was not familiar with
them.  I had to teach him.   Magnolia had a base/limit register MMU similar
to the PDP-11/70.  The original OS was V7 and swapped.  It ran just fine.



> I think
> that the Magnolia predated the 68010 and certainly predated the 68020 and
> awful but usable PMMU.

The wire-wrapped prototype was originally an X-series chip and yes the
first 'production' units were real 10Mhz 68000s.   After I went back to
grad school, Roger spliced a 68010 into and ripped out my MMU.  The late
Terry Laskodi put 4.1BSD on it.



> Part of the issue was that the Magnolia was developed in Tek Labs, which
> was
> the research end of things.  It wasn't a product organization, the Magnolia
> at the time hadn't gone through any of the rigorous environmental testing
> required by Tek which was a company that actually provided warranty
> service.
> And there was no marketing, not that Tek was a marketing powerhouse.  Given
> the way that things panned out I don't think that the Magnolia would have
> been
> a player once things like Suns appeared, if for no other reason that Tek
> had no
> clue as to how to do anything in volume and our stuff was way too
> expensive.
>
Very possible, but they did have first mover position.  In fact, folks at
Harvard Business as much as said so later.  There is a great HBS case study
written about it called "Why Skunk Projects Don't Work" (which I have
somewhere) -- I should get that scanned at added to the Magnolia archive on
BitSavers.




>
> In any case, while the 32032 was a problem, the real reason that Tek failed
> in the workstation biz was management.

No doubt... but it was 3 years later.   Which I think was a huge issue.




>  "well, we have 2 RS-232 ports and a parallel port and so we'll work with
> that."

Which of course was what Magnolia had been 3.5 years earlier and was what
became the 4404 Smalltalk machine.

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Re: [TUHS] Early Linux and BSD (was: On the origins of Linux - "an academic question")

[Clem Cole]

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On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 2:10 PM Theodore Y. Ts'o <tytso@mit.edu> wrote:

> .... which is dated July 1992, and describes a "launch" of 386BSD

Ouch....  this is why people get confused. I'm probably not helping by not
being precise enough.

386/Net/Free/OpenBSD as >>projects<< are different from the original 386
work that Bill and Lynn did to get it running on the first 386 and get that
code back into the CRSG project.   The 386 was released in 1985 by Intel.
A number of firms started to use it.  Wikipedia says Compaw was first (The
Compaq Deskpro 386/25 was '89 according to google and we used a Wyse 32:16
at Stellar before that).  Bill Jolitz did is work originally on a Multibus
based 386 from Intel (using his NS system to bootstrap) and moved it to the
PC (I thought a Deskpro) shortly after it started to ship.

Most of us call that work '386BSD' but it was 4.X BSD that booted on a 386
based PC and not really what you are discussing.  These bits are/were the
'hidden' ftp - which is not to be confused with the first BSD 'distro' for
the 386 which would be much more public,

BTW: The original BSD on a 386, install was very rough.   Bill had created
the boot floppies on his NS system.   You had a use a DOS program to create
them via an image copy and the boot was really funky.   As I said, the
original AT driver was wrong, and kept getting hosed until I fixed it when
I was consulting for NCR (on their 386 system in 1989).   IIRC Jolitz had
created it by looking at that Minx AT driver and made some guess.   I had
(think I still have) the WD1003 documents, so I knew what the registers
really looked like and it was not handling some error conditions IIRC.

And the naming is really the root of the whole argument BTW....   BSD 4.x
for a 386 based system *vs.* a real distribution.   Bill Jolitz tried to
make a better release for a BSD on a 386 (*a.k.a.* 386BSD)  The install for
a PC/386 improved. IIRC, Intel had paid CMU to do some work as part of
Andrew and the Mach stuff (Bob Barron was the author of this I believe).,
 They wrote a version fdisk, and a bunch of things to allow dual booting
and some other tools that ran on DOS.  I don't remember how, but Bill
Jolitz got that code and very early on the BSD 386 port used it - probably
as part of the CMU/Mach to CSRG push/intermixing.

And later on yet to Jordan's credit, and it was after Linux, NetBSD, *etc*
was all there, that FreeBSD, completely redid the install scripts and made
the system that pretty much is the model for all current PC based systems
now.   In fact, around that time I had started work with Linux and one of
the things liked about FreeBSD 1.x was the install compared to the
original  Linus package (although I had an early Slackware pretty earlier
in my Linux time and that improved things).  I think your comment and about
the healthy competition was true, each team was trying to do better.

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Re: [TUHS] Early Linux and BSD (was: On the origins of Linux - "an academic question")

[Jon Steinhart]

Clem Cole writes:
>
> On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 1:04 PM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:
>
> > I know those Nat Semi chips very well, or did at the time.  I so wanted to
> > love those chips, the instruction set felt like whoever did the PDP-11
> > did the 320xx chips.
>
> It was clear, the NS folks, like the Moto folk, knew the PDP-11 and VAX.
>  It was a nice architecture and should been a win but...
>
> > But they couldn't produce chips without bugs and that killed them.
>
> I really think it was they were the third man and too late.   Between Apple
> on the Mac and Apollo, Masscomp and eventually Sun, the 68000 and later
> 68010 had volume.   8086 family had volume with the PC.
>
> As Jon can tell you, Tektronix decided the use the NS chip and tossed a
> working 68000/68010 design (Magnolia - which would later ship at 4400) for
> a completely new workstation.  But it meant starting from scratch.   Big
> mistake...
>
> If they had just shipped Magnolia at the beginning, I'm not sure either
> Masscomp or Sun would have been birthed.   Apollo and Triple-Drip were
> already there, but thy would have had the first UNIX workstation on the
> market, with a super graphics system.  Sigh....
>
> > It's a crying shame, I liked the instruction set
> > WAY better than the VAX.  The VAX seemed really messing compared to
> > the PDP-11, the 320xx chips seemed clean.  Might be rose colored
> > glasses but that's my memory.
>
> I would not say way better, but much cleaner.  To DEC's credit, the idea of
> the VAX was to take the PDP-11 forward and keep things running.   Funny, DG
> did that better in the end, but that was the idea at least.   NS was trying
> to make the VAX without the rough edges, mistakes DEC had made.  Prof. Yale
> Patt consulted on both Instructions sets BTW, which may be why they look so
> similar.

I remember it slightly differently than Clem, but close.  The Magnolia wasn't
a UNIX workstation, it was an experimental Smalltalk machine.  I don't recall
much about it, but I don't think that it had to address many of the problems
that UNIX had at the time with the 68000 such as the lack of a MMU.  I think
that the Magnolia predated the 68010 and certainly predated the 68020 and
awful but usable PMMU.  There were also many political issues because by this
time the legacy of Howard Vollum had departed Tektronix and it was starting to
die the slow death of a poorly managed company being looted by top management
which has become all too common since.  But at least Tek lead in something!

Part of the issue was that the Magnolia was developed in Tek Labs, which was
the research end of things.  It wasn't a product organization, the Magnolia
at the time hadn't gone through any of the rigorous environmental testing
required by Tek which was a company that actually provided warranty service.
And there was no marketing, not that Tek was a marketing powerhouse.  Given
the way that things panned out I don't think that the Magnolia would have been
a player once things like Suns appeared, if for no other reason that Tek had no
clue as to how to do anything in volume and our stuff was way too expensive.

The 32032 made sense for the workstation division based on the data sheets.
But, it turned out to be extremely buggy, and unlike the 68K I don't recall
the ability to look at and patch the state of the microcode.

In any case, while the 32032 was a problem, the real reason that Tek failed
in the workstation biz was management.  What happened was that programmable
instrumentation was becoming a thing.  Every instrument group in the company
was building their own "controller" for instrument programming.  In a rare
case of good decision-making it was decided that a single group would build
a controller that everyone else would use; this was the workstation division.
But, this took the most fun thing away from all of the other groups.  They
way that management structured things, instrument groups have to use the
workstation unless it was missing something that they required.  The result
was that the workstation had to meet the union of all requirements, real or
imagined.  The I/O board in this thing had like 4 GPIB ports, 24 RS-232 ports,
8 RS-422 ports (I don't remember the exact number), and so on, making it more
expensive than anybody else's CPU board.  Of course, when the IBM PC came along
all of the instrument groups said "well, we have 2 RS-232 ports and a parallel
port and so we'll work with that."  Had management said that the workstation
group could do what was reasonable and that everyone would have to adapt and
use it we could have parallel groups competing on 32K and 68K designs.

Jon

Re: [TUHS] Early Linux and BSD (was: On the origins of Linux - "an academic question")

[Clem Cole]

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On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 1:04 PM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:

> I know those Nat Semi chips very well, or did at the time.  I so wanted to
> love those chips, the instruction set felt like whoever did the PDP-11
> did the 320xx chips.

It was clear, the NS folks, like the Moto folk, knew the PDP-11 and VAX.
 It was a nice architecture and should been a win but...



> But they couldn't produce chips without bugs and that killed them.

I really think it was they were the third man and too late.   Between Apple
on the Mac and Apollo, Masscomp and eventually Sun, the 68000 and later
68010 had volume.   8086 family had volume with the PC.

As Jon can tell you, Tektronix decided the use the NS chip and tossed a
working 68000/68010 design (Magnolia - which would later ship at 4400) for
a completely new workstation.  But it meant starting from scratch.   Big
mistake...

If they had just shipped Magnolia at the beginning, I'm not sure either
Masscomp or Sun would have been birthed.   Apollo and Triple-Drip were
already there, but thy would have had the first UNIX workstation on the
market, with a super graphics system.  Sigh....



> It's a crying shame, I liked the instruction set
> WAY better than the VAX.  The VAX seemed really messing compared to
> the PDP-11, the 320xx chips seemed clean.  Might be rose colored
> glasses but that's my memory.

I would not say way better, but much cleaner.  To DEC's credit, the idea of
the VAX was to take the PDP-11 forward and keep things running.   Funny, DG
did that better in the end, but that was the idea at least.   NS was trying
to make the VAX without the rough edges, mistakes DEC had made.  Prof. Yale
Patt consulted on both Instructions sets BTW, which may be why they look so
similar.

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Re: [TUHS] Early Linux and BSD (was: On the origins of Linux - "an academic question")

[Theodore Y. Ts'o]

On Sun, Jan 19, 2020 at 07:32:57PM -0800, Greg A. Woods wrote:
> > Out of curiosity, did the articles contain download information for a
> > bootable copy of 386BSD?
> 
> Yes, they did:
> 
>      https://www.drdobbs.com/porting-unix-to-the-386-the-final-step/184408800

.... which is dated July 1992, and describes a "launch" of 386BSD
Release 0.0 in March 17, 1992.  This is contemporaneous with Linux
0.95a (which by coincidence was also released on March 17th, 1992.)

The first "real" distribution, the Soft Landing System, was released
in May 1992.  (The Manchester Computer Centre distribution in November
1991 was a floppy-based distro containing command-line and development
utilities, but not X Windows, so some people don't feel it counts as a
full-featured distribution.)

> Also keep in mind that NetBSD started as a set of "net" (as in usenet)
> patch kits for 386BSD.

It looks like NetBSD's source code repository was established on March
21, 1993.  Patchkit 0.2.2 was apparently also released on the same
date.  NetBSD's first release, 0.8, was released on April 19, 1993.

The FreeBSD project was named in June 19, 1993, with its first release
in November 1993.

So it's easy to use the lawsuit as the scapegoat for why the BSD's
failed to take off, but at best it's only one of many factors.  The
Jolitzs' refusal to accept many patches, forcing a delay of a year
before spawning two project forks, was one.  The dispersal of effort
as a side effect of various people trying to start companies around
BSD code (SunOS, NetApp, BSDI, Wasabi Systems, etc.)  was another.
BSD-licensed code seems to thrive best when there are grants or
non-profit institutions funding its work; but attempts to support BSD
code from as part of commercial work doesn't seem to have worked out
as well.

As dwheeler (I think Dave Wheeler, but I'm not certain) astutely
observed in 2006:

   I think the BSD license has been a lot of trouble to the
   *BSDs. Every few years, someone says, "hey, let's start a company
   based on this BSD code!" (BSD/OS in particular comes to mind, but
   SunOS and others did the same). They pull the *BSD code in, and
   some of the best BSD developers, and write a proprietary
   derivative. But as a proprietary vendor, their fork becomes
   expensive to self-maintain, and eventually the company
   founders. All that company work is lost forever, and good
   developers were sucked away during that period. Repeat, repeat,
   repeat. That's more than enough to explain why the BSDs manage to
   make steps forward, but just don't manage to maintain the pace of
   Linux kernel development.

   Meanwhile, the GPL has legally enforced a consortia on major
   commercial companies. Red Hat, Novell, IBM, and many others are all
   contributing, and feel safe in doing so because the others are
   legally required to do the same. It's basically created a "safe"
   zone of cooperation, without anyone having to sign complicated
   legal documents. A company can't feel safe contributing code to the
   BSDs, because its competitors might simply copy it without
   reciprocating. There's much more corporate cooperation in the
   GPL'ed kernel code than with the BSD'd kernel code. Which means
   that in practice, it's actually been the GPL that's most
   "business-friendly". So while the BSDs have lost energy every time
   a company gets involved, the GPL'ed programs gain almost every time
   a company gets involved. And that explains it all.

   - https://lwn.net/Articles/197875/

I'll also note that the GPL licensing means that I've been able to
carry my expertise in the code base across 4 job changes (MIT, VA
Linux Systems, IBM, Google).  In effect, this arrangement and the
business models forced by the GPL allocates more value to the
community at large and to the engineers working at those companies, at
the expense of value that can be extracted to the corporate
shareholders --- for better or for worse.

And so while I don't have a private jet like some of the early
founders of Sun, NetApp, et. al., and I'm still a working stiff, I
lead a comfortable life, and it seems like a good tradeoff to me.  :-)

In the long run, it might be interesting to see how the Illumos (Open
Solaris) derivatives fare compared to Free/Net/Open/Dragon BSD's.
There seem to be some interesting cooperation from the set of
companies that use Illumos, which is encouraged by the CDDL's weak
provisions.  So if Illumos and its derivatives are able to overtake
*BSD's despite the *BSD's having an earlier start, that might be an
interesting confirmation of dwheeler's point above.

					- Ted

Re: [TUHS] Early Linux and BSD (was: On the origins of Linux - "an academic question")

[Clem Cole]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1240 bytes --]

On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 12:49 PM Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:

> Thanks Clem.
>
Most welcome

>
> One minor clarification.  Jordan and the patchkit work did predate NetBSD.
> However, the NetBSD project formed a little before the FreeBSD project that
> grew out of the patchkit days. Jordan didn't get that moving until NetBSD
> made rumblings...
>
Right - if I was not clear, on that ordering, mei culpa.


> it was still a time that you heard a lot of what was going on by word of
> mouth, not so much by postings and email...
>
Exactly.


>
> The OpenBSD split was years later... and a complicated mix of personality
> conflicts and technical differences.
>
A real shame IMO, but giving the personalities, I'm not sure it was not
predestined,



> But in many ways it was a smaller split since for a long time they were
> almost 100% compatible at the driver level
>
Very true, I run OpenBSD on my router/main server - I just want a minimum
system, that I feel it safe.
I have NetBSD on a couple of boxes cause it runs and FreeBSD or Linux on
others.   And MacOS on my desktop.

I'm sort of, whatever gets the job done and I don't have to think too much
about it, but it's probably why the little incompatibilities drive me nuts.

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Re: [TUHS] Early Linux and BSD (was: On the origins of Linux - "an academic question")

[David Barto]

On Jan 20, 2020, at 10:04 AM, Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:
> 
> On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 12:19:25PM -0500, Clem Cole wrote:
>> On Sun, Jan 19, 2020 at 10:52 PM George Michaelson <ggm@algebras.org> wrote:
>> 
>>> It does me no credit, that I initially reacted very badly to 386BSD,
>>> and the initial {Net,Free,Open} situation.
>>> 
>> First, be careful.   What we sometimes call 386BSD as a 'release' started
>> just as a port of NET2 to the 386 based 'commodity' hardware platform.  The
>> history is that in the late 1970s/early 80s Bill Jolitz was working for Nat
>> Semi and ported BSD 4.1, to a multibus based NS16032 board that NS had
>> built, which was similar to the Stanford University Network (SUN) terminal
>> what had a 68000.  He eventually built a 'luggable' using that and updated
>> to the port to 4.2++.   He (and Lynn I believe) started a company to sell
>> that hardware/software solution and for whatever reason, it did not really
>> take off.
> 
> I know those Nat Semi chips very well, or did at the time.  I so wanted to
> love those chips, the instruction set felt like whoever did the PDP-11
> did the 320xx chips.  But they couldn't produce chips without bugs and
> that killed them.  It's a crying shame, I liked the instruction set
> WAY better than the VAX.  The VAX seemed really messing compared to 
> the PDP-11, the 320xx chips seemed clean.  Might be rose colored 
> glasses but that's my memory.


My memory as well. A friend and I got ahold of the complete set of chips
and started to build out the hardware for a Unix box. We got most of the
way there too, and then the odd quirks started showing up. We tracked
some of them to our layout and the others to the NS chips. Then we gave
it up as a “ah, it would have been nice if only” project.

	David

Re: [TUHS] Early Linux and BSD (was: On the origins of Linux - "an academic question")

[Larry McVoy]

On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 12:19:25PM -0500, Clem Cole wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 19, 2020 at 10:52 PM George Michaelson <ggm@algebras.org> wrote:
> 
> > It does me no credit, that I initially reacted very badly to 386BSD,
> > and the initial {Net,Free,Open} situation.
> >
> First, be careful.   What we sometimes call 386BSD as a 'release' started
> just as a port of NET2 to the 386 based 'commodity' hardware platform.  The
> history is that in the late 1970s/early 80s Bill Jolitz was working for Nat
> Semi and ported BSD 4.1, to a multibus based NS16032 board that NS had
> built, which was similar to the Stanford University Network (SUN) terminal
> what had a 68000.  He eventually built a 'luggable' using that and updated
> to the port to 4.2++.   He (and Lynn I believe) started a company to sell
> that hardware/software solution and for whatever reason, it did not really
> take off.

I know those Nat Semi chips very well, or did at the time.  I so wanted to
love those chips, the instruction set felt like whoever did the PDP-11
did the 320xx chips.  But they couldn't produce chips without bugs and
that killed them.  It's a crying shame, I liked the instruction set
WAY better than the VAX.  The VAX seemed really messing compared to 
the PDP-11, the 320xx chips seemed clean.  Might be rose colored 
glasses but that's my memory.

Re: [TUHS] Early Linux and BSD (was: On the origins of Linux - "an academic question")

[Warner Losh]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 10079 bytes --]

Thanks Clem.

One minor clarification.  Jordan and the patchkit work did predate NetBSD.
However, the NetBSD project formed a little before the FreeBSD project that
grew out of the patchkit days. Jordan didn't get that moving until NetBSD
made rumblings... it was still a time that you heard a lot of what was
going on by word of mouth, not so much by postings and email...

The OpenBSD split was years later... and a complicated mix of personality
conflicts and technical differences. But in many ways it was a smaller
split since for a long time they were almost 100% compatible at the driver
level (something you could never really say about net and free).

Warner

On Mon, Jan 20, 2020, 10:21 AM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Sun, Jan 19, 2020 at 10:52 PM George Michaelson <ggm@algebras.org>
> wrote:
>
>> It does me no credit, that I initially reacted very badly to 386BSD,
>> and the initial {Net,Free,Open} situation.
>>
> First, be careful.   What we sometimes call 386BSD as a 'release' started
> just as a port of NET2 to the 386 based 'commodity' hardware platform.  The
> history is that in the late 1970s/early 80s Bill Jolitz was working for Nat
> Semi and ported BSD 4.1, to a multibus based NS16032 board that NS had
> built, which was similar to the Stanford University Network (SUN) terminal
> what had a 68000.  He eventually built a 'luggable' using that and
> updated to the port to 4.2++.   He (and Lynn I believe) started a company
> to sell that hardware/software solution and for whatever reason, it did not
> really take off.
>
> At some point, he got his hands on a 386based PC (Compaq I think) and
> started to move his port over to that system.   A number of people helped
> him (for instance I did a bunch of the AT/disk controller work as I had
> access to the WD design documents for another consulting gig I had at the
> time - Bill mentioned this in the articles BTW).
>
> Bill and Lynn's NS16032 and 386 code went back to the CSRG 'masters' -
> although how and that happened was never completely clear to me. The SCCS
> deltas tell at least part of the story.     Bill managed to make a bootable
> image that mostly installed on a PC/386 as the minicomputer versions did
> from the formal release.   The ftp area of ucbvax had all of these bootable
> images available for download such as one for an HP 68K system and I think
> the DEC VAX and PMAX, the CCG system and a few others IIRC.  As I have said
> in other messages if you were a UCB licensee you had the passwords to
> look/download from that area.    Bill placed that version in the same ftp
> area.  The 386 based port went viral at least with the UCB licensees.  (In
> fact, if Linus had known about it, theoretically he could have used it
> also.   His university was licensee, but as Larry McVoy likes to point, not
> all the schools were as free with the IP, so I will not go down that
> rathole).
>
> The bottom line is that many people (like me on a Wyse386) started with
> Bill's original port; including the BSDi founders.
>
> When Jolitz and BSDi went separate ways, Jolitiz continued to update the
> CSRG 386 based tarball (to an extent).  One of the issues was there
> originally was attempt to keep the different architectural versions of BSD
> in sync ( to a point and NetBSD does yet exist).    A number of people were
> unhappy and the speed, depth *etc*. of the 386 version, most
> notably Jordan Hubbard and FreeBSD was born.  The two biggest issues Jordan
> wanted to fix, was easier install and a bit wider support for more hardware
> (again I sent Jordan the changes to FreeBSN 1x for the Wyse and a couple of
> NCR boxes).  The NetBSD project would birth from the original ideals of
> CSRG and trying to keep everything the same but that's still in the future.
>
>
>
>
>>
>> I found all this "fragmentation" pretty hard to understand. -BSDI felt
>> like it had occupied the space, and I couldn't entirely understand
>> what was going on, or why any of it mattered.
>>
> See below....
>
>
>
>
>> What I think I missed (didn't understand) was how draining support was
>> for Berkeley, and in the absence of a sugar daddy
>>
> Herein is the issue that many people on the sidelines missed.
>
> CRSG was a large project and funded a lot of work at UCB in EECS. It never
> funded me (I was funded by Tektronix, HP, DEC *et al*), but that project
> did a fund a number of students.  However, at some point CSRG stopped being
> a research project and started being a support project for DARPA.  There
> was also a good deal of resentment by some groups in EECS that were not
> getting DARPA funding.
> I'll not say if that was good or bad but I will say that it did cause
> great deal consternation at UCB within the department and many people doing
> more formal research were not happy.    In the end, the EECS
> Department mothers and fathers along with the Dean *et al*, decided to
> stop/end the CSRG project.  Many people who were directly or indirectly
> working on BSD, like Mary Ann and myself, had graduated and had since
> left.  Bob Kridle had formed Mt. Xinu, Asa Romberger has formed Unisoft, Joy
> had left/was leaving for Sun, *etc*.    So the question remained what to
> do with CSRG.   As to what everyone would do, became every person for
> her/himself and as we know some of the folks, along with a few folks from
> the USENIX community formed BSDi.
>
> As was noted elsewhere, NetBSD would eventually be formed by volunteers to
> keep the different ports alive (in fact much of the efforts was from folks
> not at UCB), but that was still in the offing.   Remember, while CSRG
> itself was not a research project, a lot of people around the world were
> using the BSD code base for their own research.  The whole idea of NetBSD
> was to create a uniform platform that people could compare things.  So, the
> question of how that was to come about or do any work on BSD if DARPA was
> not paying the bills, was still an open one.  But, the idea that would
> eventually create FreeBSD, was supporting a pure commodity *solution for
> day-to-day use, not as a research platform*. [I'll leave off the later
> OpenBSD/NetBSD fork by Theo here as it has little to do with the question].
>
> BSDi had a similar/same goal of producing something like SunOS/VMS *etc* but
> supported on commodity hardware.  That solution was to sell it and using
> the revenues from the support contract, be able to pay people to do that
> work.  As I said and in some other messages, it is noted that Bill Jolitz
> wanted something more FOSS.   Truth is BSDi code was 'open source' but it
> took a $1K license to *get the source from them*.
>
> In the end, the real problem was not the infighting between the different
> BSD camps, but AT&T, who wanted the entire pie.  Clearly, their executives
> saw anything other than their complete control of the UNIX IP as a threat.
> Hence the court case, the eventually AT&T/Sun relationship *etc*...
>
> Your lack of 'sugar daddy,' really comes back to that.   There were few
> people at the time that could pay the bills.  Until then DARPA had been
> it.  I do not know if DARPA wanted out or if another group could have been
> formed that could take over CSRG.  I did have discussions with Rob over a
> beer that at least the thought had crossed the BSDi folks mind, that once
> started; they would apply for a DARPA contract.
>
> At the time had blow up, I was a consultant and I personally was
> considering what I was going to do next and if they had had a real future,
> the talks with Rob might have gotten more serious.   My wife wanted me to
> stop being independent if we were to start a family (I would join Locus
> instead).
>
> BTW: I was in an interesting position as I was friends with all of the
> different sides in the war/original fight.  Like Jolitz, I wanted to see
> what we now call a 'FOSS' release of BSD.   But like Rob, I knew it was
> going to take some revenue stream to make it happen/continue the support.
>   In the end, the AT&T legal mess blew it all up.   BSDi ended up failing
> and Jordan's work stayed around.
>
> BTW: what pays for Linux development these days by number of 'committers
> salary' is Intel (#1), IBM (#2), then a load of other firms including the
> different distros.  But for *any* platform to be successful and actually
> continue to be used in the market, someone has to pay the salaries of some
> set of professional programmers to do the work.
>
> That said when AT&T injoined BSDi and UCB a lot of people (myself
> included) started to hack on Linux.  But just think if AT&T had actually
> won the case and courts decided UNIX was allowed to be a trade secret, then
> Linux and all of the UNIX 'clones' would have been in violation.
>
> No matter what flavor of UNIX you like, we are all in debt to UCB and BSDi
> for settling the IP argument.  The court was clear, the >>ideas<< behind
> UNIX (*a.k.a.* the intellectual property) came from Ken, Dennis and
> friends at AT&T and *they did own it.*   But because of the 1956 consent
> decree that published the ideas and the moment the ideas were published, we
> all can now >>use<< them.  The provenance of the source code does not
> relate to the provenance of the idea, so* the source code itself does not
> define what UNIX is or is not.  *
>
> I bring this all up in hopes to try to close this rat hole of Linux, *vs*.
> *BSD.   Like editors, we all have our own favorites.  That's cool, we don't
> want one thing to be forced down our throat.  Having a choice is what is
> good.   And what I value, Larry or Jon may not necessarily like.   Most of
> us if not all on this list probably want something that approximates Ken
> and Dennis's original ideas not what IBM, DEC, CDC were trying to make us
> use in the old days or what Microsoft calls a system today.
>
> The discussion of how we got there and what people valued at the time is
> useful so we can try to remember the history and learn from it; but getting
> into right/wrong, good/bad, or you could have had this is a tad tiresome;
> IMO.
>

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Re: [TUHS] Early Linux and BSD (was: On the origins of Linux - "an academic question")

[Clem Cole]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 9048 bytes --]

On Sun, Jan 19, 2020 at 10:52 PM George Michaelson <ggm@algebras.org> wrote:

> It does me no credit, that I initially reacted very badly to 386BSD,
> and the initial {Net,Free,Open} situation.
>
First, be careful.   What we sometimes call 386BSD as a 'release' started
just as a port of NET2 to the 386 based 'commodity' hardware platform.  The
history is that in the late 1970s/early 80s Bill Jolitz was working for Nat
Semi and ported BSD 4.1, to a multibus based NS16032 board that NS had
built, which was similar to the Stanford University Network (SUN) terminal
what had a 68000.  He eventually built a 'luggable' using that and updated
to the port to 4.2++.   He (and Lynn I believe) started a company to sell
that hardware/software solution and for whatever reason, it did not really
take off.

At some point, he got his hands on a 386based PC (Compaq I think) and
started to move his port over to that system.   A number of people helped
him (for instance I did a bunch of the AT/disk controller work as I had
access to the WD design documents for another consulting gig I had at the
time - Bill mentioned this in the articles BTW).

Bill and Lynn's NS16032 and 386 code went back to the CSRG 'masters' -
although how and that happened was never completely clear to me. The SCCS
deltas tell at least part of the story.     Bill managed to make a bootable
image that mostly installed on a PC/386 as the minicomputer versions did
from the formal release.   The ftp area of ucbvax had all of these bootable
images available for download such as one for an HP 68K system and I think
the DEC VAX and PMAX, the CCG system and a few others IIRC.  As I have said
in other messages if you were a UCB licensee you had the passwords to
look/download from that area.    Bill placed that version in the same ftp
area.  The 386 based port went viral at least with the UCB licensees.  (In
fact, if Linus had known about it, theoretically he could have used it
also.   His university was licensee, but as Larry McVoy likes to point, not
all the schools were as free with the IP, so I will not go down that
rathole).

The bottom line is that many people (like me on a Wyse386) started with
Bill's original port; including the BSDi founders.

When Jolitz and BSDi went separate ways, Jolitiz continued to update the
CSRG 386 based tarball (to an extent).  One of the issues was there
originally was attempt to keep the different architectural versions of BSD
in sync ( to a point and NetBSD does yet exist).    A number of people were
unhappy and the speed, depth *etc*. of the 386 version, most notably Jordan
Hubbard and FreeBSD was born.  The two biggest issues Jordan wanted to fix,
was easier install and a bit wider support for more hardware (again I sent
Jordan the changes to FreeBSN 1x for the Wyse and a couple of NCR boxes).
The NetBSD project would birth from the original ideals of CSRG and trying
to keep everything the same but that's still in the future.




>
> I found all this "fragmentation" pretty hard to understand. -BSDI felt
> like it had occupied the space, and I couldn't entirely understand
> what was going on, or why any of it mattered.
>
See below....




> What I think I missed (didn't understand) was how draining support was
> for Berkeley, and in the absence of a sugar daddy
>
Herein is the issue that many people on the sidelines missed.

CRSG was a large project and funded a lot of work at UCB in EECS. It never
funded me (I was funded by Tektronix, HP, DEC *et al*), but that project
did a fund a number of students.  However, at some point CSRG stopped being
a research project and started being a support project for DARPA.  There
was also a good deal of resentment by some groups in EECS that were not
getting DARPA funding.
I'll not say if that was good or bad but I will say that it did cause great
deal consternation at UCB within the department and many people doing more
formal research were not happy.    In the end, the EECS Department mothers
and fathers along with the Dean *et al*, decided to stop/end the CSRG
project.  Many people who were directly or indirectly working on BSD, like
Mary Ann and myself, had graduated and had since left.  Bob Kridle had
formed Mt. Xinu, Asa Romberger has formed Unisoft, Joy had left/was leaving
for Sun, *etc*.    So the question remained what to do with CSRG.   As to
what everyone would do, became every person for her/himself and as we know
some of the folks, along with a few folks from the USENIX community formed
BSDi.

As was noted elsewhere, NetBSD would eventually be formed by volunteers to
keep the different ports alive (in fact much of the efforts was from folks
not at UCB), but that was still in the offing.   Remember, while CSRG
itself was not a research project, a lot of people around the world were
using the BSD code base for their own research.  The whole idea of NetBSD
was to create a uniform platform that people could compare things.  So, the
question of how that was to come about or do any work on BSD if DARPA was
not paying the bills, was still an open one.  But, the idea that would
eventually create FreeBSD, was supporting a pure commodity *solution for
day-to-day use, not as a research platform*. [I'll leave off the later
OpenBSD/NetBSD fork by Theo here as it has little to do with the question].

BSDi had a similar/same goal of producing something like SunOS/VMS *etc* but
supported on commodity hardware.  That solution was to sell it and using
the revenues from the support contract, be able to pay people to do that
work.  As I said and in some other messages, it is noted that Bill Jolitz
wanted something more FOSS.   Truth is BSDi code was 'open source' but it
took a $1K license to *get the source from them*.

In the end, the real problem was not the infighting between the different
BSD camps, but AT&T, who wanted the entire pie.  Clearly, their executives
saw anything other than their complete control of the UNIX IP as a threat.
Hence the court case, the eventually AT&T/Sun relationship *etc*...

Your lack of 'sugar daddy,' really comes back to that.   There were few
people at the time that could pay the bills.  Until then DARPA had been
it.  I do not know if DARPA wanted out or if another group could have been
formed that could take over CSRG.  I did have discussions with Rob over a
beer that at least the thought had crossed the BSDi folks mind, that once
started; they would apply for a DARPA contract.

At the time had blow up, I was a consultant and I personally was
considering what I was going to do next and if they had had a real future,
the talks with Rob might have gotten more serious.   My wife wanted me to
stop being independent if we were to start a family (I would join Locus
instead).

BTW: I was in an interesting position as I was friends with all of the
different sides in the war/original fight.  Like Jolitz, I wanted to see
what we now call a 'FOSS' release of BSD.   But like Rob, I knew it was
going to take some revenue stream to make it happen/continue the support.
  In the end, the AT&T legal mess blew it all up.   BSDi ended up failing
and Jordan's work stayed around.

BTW: what pays for Linux development these days by number of 'committers
salary' is Intel (#1), IBM (#2), then a load of other firms including the
different distros.  But for *any* platform to be successful and actually
continue to be used in the market, someone has to pay the salaries of some
set of professional programmers to do the work.

That said when AT&T injoined BSDi and UCB a lot of people (myself included)
started to hack on Linux.  But just think if AT&T had actually won the case
and courts decided UNIX was allowed to be a trade secret, then Linux and
all of the UNIX 'clones' would have been in violation.

No matter what flavor of UNIX you like, we are all in debt to UCB and BSDi
for settling the IP argument.  The court was clear, the >>ideas<< behind
UNIX (*a.k.a.* the intellectual property) came from Ken, Dennis and friends
at AT&T and *they did own it.*   But because of the 1956 consent decree
that published the ideas and the moment the ideas were published, we all
can now >>use<< them.  The provenance of the source code does not relate to
the provenance of the idea, so* the source code itself does not define what
UNIX is or is not.  *

I bring this all up in hopes to try to close this rat hole of Linux, *vs*.
*BSD.   Like editors, we all have our own favorites.  That's cool, we don't
want one thing to be forced down our throat.  Having a choice is what is
good.   And what I value, Larry or Jon may not necessarily like.   Most of
us if not all on this list probably want something that approximates Ken
and Dennis's original ideas not what IBM, DEC, CDC were trying to make us
use in the old days or what Microsoft calls a system today.

The discussion of how we got there and what people valued at the time is
useful so we can try to remember the history and learn from it; but getting
into right/wrong, good/bad, or you could have had this is a tad tiresome;
IMO.

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 15426 bytes --]

Re: [TUHS] Early Linux and BSD (was: On the origins of Linux - "an academic question")

[George Michaelson]

It does me no credit, that I initially reacted very badly to 386BSD,
and the initial {Net,Free,Open} situation.

I found all this "fragmentation" pretty hard to understand. -BSDI felt
like it had occupied the space, and I couldn't entirely understand
what was going on, or why any of it mattered.

I also reacted very badly to the public dirty linen spats around the
Jolitz's IPR, and who-did-what to-whom  in woodshed, with colonel
mustard and the lead pipe.

What worried me was the loss of intellectual capital. People I liked
online, and respected, seemed to be running to the four winds. Why was
something I worked with turning to suck?

What I think I missed (didn't understand) was how draining support was
for Berkeley, and in the absence of a sugar daddy (Earth Sciences?
DOE? IBM?) and loss of contracts like the NSFNet support for BSD-rt
(they stopped using PC-Rt as a platform for routing) It was
increasingly hard for a teaching and research institution to justify
what was going on. Sun spun out of Stanford. MIT was doing the Gui
work. Compilers had gone really funny with Gnu and an income stream
had evaporated, and a lawsuit was in the offing, and people who hadn't
done full on DOTCOM boom vesting suddenly found growing old and not
having a 401k at the scale they needed to maintain a wine cellar ...

What I also missed is that it stopped innovating. People were
innovating in other places, doing things I didn't understand. I
totally did NOT get what 8th ed. and Plan9 was on. Drugs I couldn't
fathom.

Nothing lasts forever. Had you said to me "ha.. VMS is going to die,
and Dec is going to die, and Sun is going to fold into Larry Ellisons
personal empire" I'd have taken every one of those bets on what turned
out to be the loosing side.

Re: [TUHS] Early Linux and BSD (was: On the origins of Linux - "an academic question")

[Greg A. Woods]

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At Sun, 19 Jan 2020 08:25:51 -0500, "Theodore Y. Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> wrote:
Subject: Re: [TUHS] Early Linux and BSD (was: On the origins of Linux - "an academic question")
>
> On Sun, Jan 19, 2020 at 02:58:08PM +1100, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote:
> >
> > Sorry, I was wrong.  That particular article was number 16 of the 18
> > part series, as shown at
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/386BSD#Further_reading.  It does raise
> > the question why the Dr Dobb's search engine didn't find any of them.
>
> Out of curiosity, did the articles contain download information for a
> bootable copy of 386BSD?

Yes, they did:

     https://www.drdobbs.com/porting-unix-to-the-386-the-final-step/184408800

See also:

    http://gunkies.org/wiki/386BSD

Also keep in mind that NetBSD started as a set of "net" (as in usenet)
patch kits for 386BSD.

--
					Greg A. Woods <gwoods@acm.org>

Kelowna, BC     +1 250 762-7675           RoboHack <woods@robohack.ca>
Planix, Inc. <woods@planix.com>     Avoncote Farms <woods@avoncote.ca>

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Re: [TUHS] Early Linux and BSD (was: On the origins of Linux - "an academic question")

[Nemo Nusquam]

On 01/19/20 09:17, Noel Chiappa wrote:
> [...]
> One of the items listed in WP, "Copyright, Copyleft, and Competitive
> Advantage" (Apr/1991) wasn't in the search results (the "Editorial" at the right point in the search results wasn't it, alas). A Web search didn't turn it up either. Since it's not in the 'releases' page, it might not really be part of the series?
>
>       Noel
I subscribed to DDJ at the time but all my issues are in storage. If 
important, I could set aside some time next week to spelunk.

N.

Re: [TUHS] Early Linux and BSD (was: On the origins of Linux - "an academic question")

[Noel Chiappa]

    > From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey <grog@lemis.com>

    > Unfortunately the Dr. Dobbs site can't find them.

    > 18 articles, which ran from January 1991 to July 1992.

If you search for "Jolitz", they almost all turn up:

  https://www.drdobbs.com/open-source/porting-unix-to-the-386-a-practical-appr/184408470
  https://www.drdobbs.com/open-source/porting-unix-to-the-386-three-initial-pc/184408496
  https://www.drdobbs.com/cpp/porting-unix-to-the-386-the-standalone-s/184408513
  https://www.drdobbs.com/open-source/porting-unix-to-the-386-language-tools-c/184408529
  https://www.drdobbs.com/porting-unix-to-the-386-the-initial-root/184408547
  https://www.drdobbs.com/porting-unix-to-the-386-research-the-co/184408566
  https://www.drdobbs.com/parallel/porting-unix-to-the-386-a-stripped-down/184408583
  https://www.drdobbs.com/open-source/porting-unix-to-the-386-the-basic-kernel/184408600
  https://www.drdobbs.com/porting-unix-to-the-386-the-basic-kernel/184408617
  https://www.drdobbs.com/porting-unix-to-the-386-the-basic-kernel/184408637
  https://www.drdobbs.com/open-source/porting-unix-to-the-386-the-basic-kernel/184408655
  https://www.drdobbs.com/architecture-and-design/porting-unix-to-the-386-device-drivers/184408710
  https://www.drdobbs.com/embedded-systems/porting-unix-to-the-386-device-drivers/184408727
  https://www.drdobbs.com/architecture-and-design/porting-unix-to-the-386-device-drivers/184408747
  https://www.drdobbs.com/architecture-and-design/porting-unix-to-the-386-missing-pieces-p/184408764
  https://www.drdobbs.com/architecture-and-design/porting-unix-to-the-386-missing-pieces-i/184408782
  https://www.drdobbs.com/porting-unix-to-the-386-the-final-step/184408800

They're not totally open access; you have to register with DD to get all of them. However,
while looking for something else (below), I did find this:

  https://www.386bsd.org/releases

which appear to be the same as the above.


One of the items listed in WP, "Copyright, Copyleft, and Competitive
Advantage" (Apr/1991) wasn't in the search results (the "Editorial" at the
right point in the search results wasn't it, alas). A Web search didn't turn
it up either. Since it's not in the 'releases' page, it might not really be
part of the series?

     Noel

Re: [TUHS] Early Linux and BSD (was: On the origins of Linux - "an academic question")

[Clem Cole]

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I don't remember, to be honest, I don't think so. When it first was
released which was before Linus's famous announcement, the ftp site was
from ucbvax and any UCB licensee that asked for got sent a copy of the URL
but you had to ask for it.

It was not a well kept secret.  When the BSDi / UCB vs ATT came later, as
Larry said a lot of us who were primarily driven by wanting a 'real unix'
for the 386 thought it was about copyright and that's when we looked at
Linux.  Then it came out that was a TS suit and many of us switched back
because Linux lacked networking and X11

On Sun, Jan 19, 2020 at 8:26 AM Theodore Y. Ts'o <tytso@mit.edu> wrote:

> On Sun, Jan 19, 2020 at 02:58:08PM +1100, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote:
> >
> > Sorry, I was wrong.  That particular article was number 16 of the 18
> > part series, as shown at
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/386BSD#Further_reading.  It does raise
> > the question why the Dr Dobb's search engine didn't find any of them.
>
> Out of curiosity, did the articles contain download information for a
> bootable copy of 386BSD?
>
>                                                 - Ted
>
-- 
Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual

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Re: [TUHS] Early Linux and BSD (was: On the origins of Linux - "an academic question")

[Theodore Y. Ts'o]

On Sun, Jan 19, 2020 at 02:58:08PM +1100, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote:
> 
> Sorry, I was wrong.  That particular article was number 16 of the 18
> part series, as shown at
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/386BSD#Further_reading.  It does raise
> the question why the Dr Dobb's search engine didn't find any of them.

Out of curiosity, did the articles contain download information for a
bootable copy of 386BSD?

						- Ted

Re: [TUHS] Early Linux and BSD (was: On the origins of Linux - "an academic question")

[Greg 'groggy' Lehey]

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On Sunday, 19 January 2020 at 14:12:25 +1100, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote:
> On Saturday, 18 January 2020 at 21:49:00 -0500, Theodore Y. Ts'o wrote:
>>
>> I don't believe that to be correct.  "Porting Unix to the 386: Missing
>> Pieces, Part 1", by William Frederick Jolitz and Lynne Greer Jolitz,
>> was published in the May 1992 issue of Dr. Dobbs Journal.
>>
>> https://www.drdobbs.com/architecture-and-design/porting-unix-to-the-386-missing-pieces-p/184408764
>
> That appears to be a different pair of articles.

Sorry, I was wrong.  That particular article was number 16 of the 18
part series, as shown at
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/386BSD#Further_reading.  It does raise
the question why the Dr Dobb's search engine didn't find any of them.

Greg
--
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Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key.
See complete headers for address and phone numbers.
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Re: [TUHS] Early Linux and BSD (was: On the origins of Linux - "an academic question")

[Greg 'groggy' Lehey]

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On Saturday, 18 January 2020 at 21:49:00 -0500, Theodore Y. Ts'o wrote:
> On Sat, Jan 18, 2020 at 03:19:13PM +1100, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote:
>> On the other hand, Bill did write the articles in Dr. Dobbs Journal,
>> which started in January 1991, so my best guess is that Linus just
>> wasn't informed about the developments.
>
> I don't believe that to be correct.  "Porting Unix to the 386: Missing
> Pieces, Part 1", by William Frederick Jolitz and Lynne Greer Jolitz,
> was published in the May 1992 issue of Dr. Dobbs Journal.
>
> https://www.drdobbs.com/architecture-and-design/porting-unix-to-the-386-missing-pieces-p/184408764

That appears to be a different pair of articles.  My quotation was
from Wikipedia, which I believe to be correct I was working in the USA
in those days, and I saw the magazine in a bookshop in Austin TX.  I
stopped working there in December 1991.  Unfortunately I wasn't very
interested at the time ("who cares about BSD?").  Check the references
in the Wikipedia article.  Unfortunately the Dr. Dobbs site can't find
them.

May 1992 was significantly after the first release of 386BSD in March
1992.

Greg
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Re: [TUHS] Early Linux and BSD (was: On the origins of Linux - "an academic question")

[Theodore Y. Ts'o]

On Sat, Jan 18, 2020 at 03:19:13PM +1100, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote:
> On the other hand, Bill did write the articles in Dr. Dobbs Journal,
> which started in January 1991, so my best guess is that Linus just
> wasn't informed about the developments.

I don't believe that to be correct.  "Porting Unix to the 386: Missing
Pieces, Part 1", by William Frederick Jolitz and Lynne Greer Jolitz,
was published in the May 1992 issue of Dr. Dobbs Journal.

https://www.drdobbs.com/architecture-and-design/porting-unix-to-the-386-missing-pieces-p/184408764

      	       	   	    	     	     	     - Ted

Re: [TUHS] Early Linux and BSD (was: On the origins of Linux - "an academic question")

[reed]

> I don't remember him mentioning working at BSDI, are you sure about 
> that part?

See https://tech-insider.org/unix/research/1992/0319.html
coworkers said:
"Jolitz was one of the founders of Berkeley Software Design, Inc. ...
was a full time employee of BSDI for 11 months of 1991 -- from
January 1, 1991 through November 30, 1991
... a founder of BSDI as well as its first full-time paid employee"

And his wife wrote "Bill did work for UUNET from January to
June of 1991."

Jeremy C. Reed

echo Ohl zl obbx uggc://errqzrqvn.arg/obbxf/csfrafr/ | \
 tr "Onoqrsuvxzabcefghl" "Babdefhikmnoprstuy"

Re: [TUHS] Early Linux and BSD (was: On the origins of Linux - "an academic question")

[Larry McVoy]

On Sat, Jan 18, 2020 at 03:35:40PM +0000, Jason Stevens wrote:
> Internet legend is that the rift was massive.????

It was and Jolitz was unfairly crapped on at a Usenix, the one after
the lawsuit.  At the time, everyone thought it was about copyright and
Jolitz told me that there was a lot of code that was unchanged from v7.
He knew that I knew the file system code and he said "Go look at bmap(),
it's byte for byte exactly the same".  He was right and there was other
stuff, it wasn't just one function.

This was after both BSDI and 386BSD were a thing.  At a Usenix conference,
the BSDI guys pissed all over him, put down his efforts on 386BSD,
it was obviously self serving because they wanted a business, but it
wasn't a nice thing to do at all.

Bill thought he had the goods on them for copyright infringement but
he held his tongue and took the abuse because he didn't want to help
the lawsuit.  In his mind, he was a martyr for the cause.

So, yeah, those guys didn't like each other.  I know all of them and
wished they had handled this better.

I heard about all this, I was probably at that Usenix or maybe someone
told me, I don't remember.  I felt bad for Bill and was in a position
where I could hire him, so I did.  He didn't really do anything for me
though we did have some fascinating discussions about the short comings
of C++ and mused about how a language would have to work to truly layer
"correctly".  The context was the SCSI subsystem, it was part replicated
protocol in each driver and part driver specific stuff and we were trying
to imagine a programming language that would let us have the replicated
stuff in one place and plumb in the specific stuff as needed.  Needless to
say, we didn't come up with an answer but it was a fun thought experiment.
He's a sharp guy, quirky, but sharp.

Re: [TUHS] Early Linux and BSD (was: On the origins of Linux - "an academic question")

[Jason Stevens]

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I would imagine that the user land changes made its way into 386 Mach.  Although I haven't seen anything I can recall off the top of my head about 386 commits in user land until much later. 
Maybe one day more of that Mt Xinu stuff will surface, although I'm still amazed I got the kernel to build. 
Internet legend is that the rift was massive.  
From: TUHS <tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org> on behalf of Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2020, 12:26 a.m.
To: Greg 'groggy' Lehey
Cc: UNIX Heritage Society
Subject: Re: [TUHS] Early Linux and BSD (was: On the origins of Linux - "an academic question")

On Sat, Jan 18, 2020 at 03:19:13PM +1100, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote:
> On Friday, 17 January 2020 at 22:50:51 -0500, Theodore Y. Ts'o wrote:
> >
> > In the super-early days (late 1991, early 1992), those of us who
> > worked on it just wanted a "something Unix-like" that we could run at
> > home (my first computer was a 40 MHz 386 with 16 MB of memory).  This
> > was before the AT&T/BSD Lawsuit (which was in 1992) and while Jolitz
> > may have been demonstrating 386BSD in private, I was certainly never
> > aware of it
> 
> At the start of this time, Bill was working for BSDI, who were
> preparing a commercial product that (in March 1992) became BSD/386.

Wikipedia says he was working on 386BSD as early has 1989 and that
clicks with me (Jolitz worked for me around 1992 or 3).  I don't
remember him mentioning working at BSDI, are you sure about that
part?  Those guys did not like each other at all.


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Re: [TUHS] Early Linux and BSD (was: On the origins of Linux - "an academic question")

[Larry McVoy]

On Sat, Jan 18, 2020 at 03:19:13PM +1100, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote:
> On Friday, 17 January 2020 at 22:50:51 -0500, Theodore Y. Ts'o wrote:
> >
> > In the super-early days (late 1991, early 1992), those of us who
> > worked on it just wanted a "something Unix-like" that we could run at
> > home (my first computer was a 40 MHz 386 with 16 MB of memory).  This
> > was before the AT&T/BSD Lawsuit (which was in 1992) and while Jolitz
> > may have been demonstrating 386BSD in private, I was certainly never
> > aware of it
> 
> At the start of this time, Bill was working for BSDI, who were
> preparing a commercial product that (in March 1992) became BSD/386.

Wikipedia says he was working on 386BSD as early has 1989 and that
clicks with me (Jolitz worked for me around 1992 or 3).  I don't
remember him mentioning working at BSDI, are you sure about that
part?  Those guys did not like each other at all.

[TUHS] Early Linux and BSD (was: On the origins of Linux - "an academic question")

[Greg 'groggy' Lehey]

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On Friday, 17 January 2020 at 22:50:51 -0500, Theodore Y. Ts'o wrote:
>
> In the super-early days (late 1991, early 1992), those of us who
> worked on it just wanted a "something Unix-like" that we could run at
> home (my first computer was a 40 MHz 386 with 16 MB of memory).  This
> was before the AT&T/BSD Lawsuit (which was in 1992) and while Jolitz
> may have been demonstrating 386BSD in private, I was certainly never
> aware of it

At the start of this time, Bill was working for BSDI, who were
preparing a commercial product that (in March 1992) became BSD/386.
As Rob Kolstad told me in mid-1992, he had a (to put it mildly)
difference of opinion with Rob, and probably others, about the
commercial nature (at the time BSD/386 cost $1000), and he resigned at
the end of 1991.  So 386BSD presumably didn't exist before that.

On the other hand, Bill did write the articles in Dr. Dobbs Journal,
which started in January 1991, so my best guess is that Linus just
wasn't informed about the developments.  It's easy to forget how
difficult it was to get this kind of information in those days.  I was
informed about the articles, but more by chance than anything else.  I
didn't find out about BSD/386 until March 1992, when the first betas
were released.

Greg
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