From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 97a6656b for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 00:13:24 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 445AE9CD7B; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 10:13:22 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FA279CD74; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 10:12:57 +1000 (AEST) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 608C39CD74; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 10:12:54 +1000 (AEST) Received: from fourwinds.com (fourwinds.com [63.64.179.162]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 353C79CD72 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 10:12:53 +1000 (AEST) Received: from darkstar.fourwinds.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fourwinds.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 01C0CqOs3910429 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 16:12:52 -0800 Received: from darkstar.fourwinds.com (jon@localhost) by darkstar.fourwinds.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id 01C0CpEC3910426 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 16:12:52 -0800 Message-Id: <202002120012.01C0CpEC3910426@darkstar.fourwinds.com> From: Jon Steinhart To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Mail-Followup-To: Jon Steinhart , The Eunuchs Hysterical Society In-reply-to: <20200211235647.TB2C9%steffen@sdaoden.eu> References: <202002101546.01AFkOSc001266@freefriends.org> <202002110933.01B9XqQX004159@freefriends.org> <20200211170501.0N1Pu%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <202002111826.01BIQp2A1764361@darkstar.fourwinds.com> <20200211235647.TB2C9%steffen@sdaoden.eu> Comments: In-reply-to Steffen Nurpmeso message dated "Wed, 12 Feb 2020 00:56:47 +0100." MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <3910424.1581466371.1@darkstar.fourwinds.com> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 16:12:51 -0800 X-JON-SPAM: local delivery Subject: Re: [TUHS] V9 shell [was Re: Warner's Early Unix Presentation] X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" Steffen Nurpmeso writes: > > Of course you are right, you will likely need to focus your mind, > and that requires an intellectual context, knowledge, to base upon. Interesting that you mention this as I'm about to leave for a multi-day advanced yoga workshop. One of the things that I like about yoga is that you do have to learn to focus your mind, and it's amazingly difficult to be focused on something as seemingly simple as standing up straight. I don't think that it's reasonable to expect people to be able to focus without training. Can you imagine if a computer tried to follow all of your fleeting thoughts? In some respects, this takes me back to the early days of speech recognition. I remember people enthusiastically telling me how it would solve the problem of repetitive stress injuries. They were surprised when I pointed out that most people who use their voice in their work actually take vocal training; RSIs are not uncommon among performers. So really, what problem are we trying to solve here? I would claim that the problem is signal-to-noise ratio degradation that's a result of too many people "learning to code" who have never learned to think. Much like I feel that it became harder to find good music when MIDI was invented because there was all of a sudden a lot more noise masquerading as music. I'm reminded of a Usenix panel session that I moderated on the future of window systems a long time ago. Rob was on the panel as was some guy whose name I can't remember from Silicon Graphics. The highlight of the presentation was when Robin asked the question "So, if I understand what the SGI person is saying, it doesn't matter how ugly your shirt is, you can always cover it up with a nice jacket...." While she was asking the question Rob anticipated the rest of the question and started unbuttoning his shirt. So maybe I'm just an old-school minimalist, but I think that the biggest problem that needs solving is good low-level abstractions that are simple and work and don't have to be papered over with layer upon layer on top of them. I just find myself without the patience to learn all of the magic incantations of the package of the week. Jon