From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id e888af35 for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2020 04:45:15 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 9ABE79D6C0; Wed, 19 Feb 2020 14:45:13 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FCB99CCBA; Wed, 19 Feb 2020 14:44:48 +1000 (AEST) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id A9CB09CCBA; Wed, 19 Feb 2020 14:44:45 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mcvoy.com (mcvoy.com [192.169.23.250]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 666769CCAB for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2020 14:44:45 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mcvoy.com (Postfix, from userid 3546) id 0F69535E141; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 20:44:45 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2020 20:44:44 -0800 From: Larry McVoy To: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Message-ID: <20200219044444.GO30841@mcvoy.com> References: <202002171520.01HFKqKi026749@tahoe.cs.Dartmouth.EDU> <4d252035b323b7583c5760c952d1982c@firemail.de> <202002171839.01HId8FT1358073@darkstar.fourwinds.com> <202002180017.01I0HI0I1415945@darkstar.fourwinds.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) Subject: Re: [TUHS] man Macro Package and pdfmark X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 12:22:56PM -0800, Greg A. Woods wrote: > At the times I referred to the lack of freely available AT&T source code > was extremely limiting in how people viewed the availability of such > "add-on" tools for Unix -- including the C compiler! This wasn't just an AT&T thing, Sun and SGI and everyone charged for their C compiler. I sort of get it, writing a good compiler is up there with writing a good kernel in effort, not quite the same, but probably the 2nd hardest thing to do. So the compiler people cost a lot, companies wanted to get that cost back. It was stupid. Having a free compiler meant that more people would write apps for your platform. It should have been a loss leader. > > For folks running binary only systems from Masscomp/Sun/DEC/HP/IBM and the > > like, it is possible it was different. > > It was _very_ different. > > If you weren't out in the trenches of end-user Unix-based systems at the > time it may not have been as obvious as to just how restrictive it was > to have proprietary fee-based licensing of such add-on software. Most > end-users couldn't even pay their vendors for ditroff -- their vendors > didn't want to have to license it from AT&T, even when they had > advocates inside the companies (e.g. I did some work supporting software > for a couple such vendors and was never able to convince them). Some, > as you mention, were all-in, but it wasn't until UNIX System V Release 4 > became more widely available that systems based on it were more likely > to have ditroff, and sometimes (though much more rarely) the "new" dpost > post-processor was also included. I don't know if there were different > licensing terms for SysVr4 or not. Don't get me started on how hard it > also was to get some end users to buy a C compiler too. Yep, lived through this as well. I fought with Sun to make more stuff free for developers, it just didn't make sense to not do that but the powers that were didn't get it. One thing that Sun did do, probably in spite of itself, was fund Michael Tiemann's work on C++. He worked out some deal that that work would be open source and he pretty much made GNU C++ work for some definition of work (C++ is a mess).