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* Re: [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks
@ 2020-07-17 18:08 Norman Wilson
  2020-07-17 18:14 ` John Cowan
                   ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 89+ messages in thread
From: Norman Wilson @ 2020-07-17 18:08 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

In my humble-but-correct opinion*, Linux and its
origins fit into the general topic of UNIX history
just as well as those of Research UNIX or BSD or
SVr4.2.2.2.2.2.2.2 or SunOS or IRIX or Ultrix or
Tru64-compaqted-HPSauce or whatever.  It all stems
from the same roots, despite the protestations of
purists from all sides.

Warren gets final say, of course, but to encourage
him I will say: Ploooogie!

Norman Wilson
Toronto ON

* One of Peter Weinberger's sayings that I still
enjoy overusing.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks
  2020-07-17 18:08 [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks Norman Wilson
@ 2020-07-17 18:14 ` John Cowan
  2020-07-17 18:19 ` Larry McVoy
  2020-07-17 19:53 ` [TUHS] Linux is on-topic Warren Toomey
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 89+ messages in thread
From: John Cowan @ 2020-07-17 18:14 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Norman Wilson; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society


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On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 2:10 PM Norman Wilson <norman@oclsc.org> wrote:


> Warren gets final say, of course, but to encourage
> him I will say: Ploooogie!
>

Is that the plural of Plugh?


John Cowan          http://vrici.lojban.org/~cowan        cowan@ccil.org
One time I called in to the central system and started working on a big
thick 'sed' and 'awk' heavy duty data bashing script.  One of the geologists
came by, looked over my shoulder and said 'Oh, that happens to me too.
Try hanging up and phoning in again.'  --Beverly Erlebacher

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* Re: [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks
  2020-07-17 18:08 [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks Norman Wilson
  2020-07-17 18:14 ` John Cowan
@ 2020-07-17 18:19 ` Larry McVoy
  2020-07-17 19:53 ` [TUHS] Linux is on-topic Warren Toomey
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 89+ messages in thread
From: Larry McVoy @ 2020-07-17 18:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Norman Wilson; +Cc: tuhs

I agree but the purists will say linux is more like minux or other
rewrites from scratch.  All the other stuff listed below that isn't
Linux, all traces back to v7, v6, etc.

Given that Linux is so wide spread, yeah, it would be nice to have a
place for old fuddy duddies like me to smack our gums and say "sonny
boy, you and your fancy TCP/IP, a modem was good enough for me and it
was uphill in both directions" :-)

Actually, TCP/IP was awesome when we got it.  Modems were better than
nothing but they sucked until they were fast enough for SLIP.

On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 02:08:31PM -0400, Norman Wilson wrote:
> In my humble-but-correct opinion*, Linux and its
> origins fit into the general topic of UNIX history
> just as well as those of Research UNIX or BSD or
> SVr4.2.2.2.2.2.2.2 or SunOS or IRIX or Ultrix or
> Tru64-compaqted-HPSauce or whatever.  It all stems
> from the same roots, despite the protestations of
> purists from all sides.
> 
> Warren gets final say, of course, but to encourage
> him I will say: Ploooogie!
> 
> Norman Wilson
> Toronto ON
> 
> * One of Peter Weinberger's sayings that I still
> enjoy overusing.

-- 
---
Larry McVoy            	     lm at mcvoy.com             http://www.mcvoy.com/lm 

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-17 18:08 [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks Norman Wilson
  2020-07-17 18:14 ` John Cowan
  2020-07-17 18:19 ` Larry McVoy
@ 2020-07-17 19:53 ` Warren Toomey
  2020-07-17 19:57   ` Larry McVoy
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread
From: Warren Toomey @ 2020-07-17 19:53 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Norman Wilson; +Cc: tuhs

On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 02:08:31PM -0400, Norman Wilson wrote:
> In my humble-but-correct opinion*, Linux and its
> origins fit into the general topic of UNIX history..
> Warren gets final say, of course, but to encourage
> him I will say: Ploooogie!

I'm happy with it, you silly twisted boy, you.

Cheers, Warren

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-17 19:53 ` [TUHS] Linux is on-topic Warren Toomey
@ 2020-07-17 19:57   ` Larry McVoy
  2020-07-17 20:00     ` Adam Thornton
                       ` (5 more replies)
  0 siblings, 6 replies; 89+ messages in thread
From: Larry McVoy @ 2020-07-17 19:57 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Warren Toomey; +Cc: tuhs

On Sat, Jul 18, 2020 at 05:53:58AM +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 02:08:31PM -0400, Norman Wilson wrote:
> > In my humble-but-correct opinion*, Linux and its
> > origins fit into the general topic of UNIX history..
> > Warren gets final say, of course, but to encourage
> > him I will say: Ploooogie!
> 
> I'm happy with it, you silly twisted boy, you.

But +1 to Grant's point not to turn TUHS into a Linux support forum.
Quite frankly, I'm old dude who relies on his kids to fix his phone
and I can google and find answers to just about any Linux problem.
So no need for that here.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-17 19:57   ` Larry McVoy
@ 2020-07-17 20:00     ` Adam Thornton
  2020-07-17 20:04       ` Larry McVoy
  2020-07-17 20:03     ` Dan Cross
                       ` (4 subsequent siblings)
  5 siblings, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread
From: Adam Thornton @ 2020-07-17 20:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Larry McVoy; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society


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I think that "Where can I find a clean copy of an HJ Lu boot/root set?" is
an acceptable-for-here Linux tech support question, to be honest.

On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 12:58 PM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:

> On Sat, Jul 18, 2020 at 05:53:58AM +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> > On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 02:08:31PM -0400, Norman Wilson wrote:
> > > In my humble-but-correct opinion*, Linux and its
> > > origins fit into the general topic of UNIX history..
> > > Warren gets final say, of course, but to encourage
> > > him I will say: Ploooogie!
> >
> > I'm happy with it, you silly twisted boy, you.
>
> But +1 to Grant's point not to turn TUHS into a Linux support forum.
> Quite frankly, I'm old dude who relies on his kids to fix his phone
> and I can google and find answers to just about any Linux problem.
> So no need for that here.
>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-17 19:57   ` Larry McVoy
  2020-07-17 20:00     ` Adam Thornton
@ 2020-07-17 20:03     ` Dan Cross
  2020-07-17 23:31       ` A. P. Garcia
  2020-07-19 10:26       ` emanuel stiebler
  2020-07-17 20:07     ` Warren Toomey
                       ` (3 subsequent siblings)
  5 siblings, 2 replies; 89+ messages in thread
From: Dan Cross @ 2020-07-17 20:03 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Larry McVoy; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society


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On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 3:58 PM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:

> Quite frankly, I'm old dude who relies on his kids to fix his phone
> and I can google and find answers to just about any Linux problem.
> So no need for that here.
>

"Back in my day, we had VAXen! And you couldn't carry them anywhere! And
the disc drives weighed a hundred pounds! AND WE LIKED IT THAT WAY!"

:-D

        - Dan C.

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* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-17 20:00     ` Adam Thornton
@ 2020-07-17 20:04       ` Larry McVoy
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 89+ messages in thread
From: Larry McVoy @ 2020-07-17 20:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Adam Thornton; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

Oh yeah, I wasn't talking about your post, your post was fine.  I was
thinking more like "Does anyone know how to get $DEVICE to work in
ubuntu 5.13?".  I think that is what Grant meant as well.

Historical is great.

On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 01:00:27PM -0700, Adam Thornton wrote:
> I think that "Where can I find a clean copy of an HJ Lu boot/root set?" is
> an acceptable-for-here Linux tech support question, to be honest.
> 
> On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 12:58 PM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:
> 
> > On Sat, Jul 18, 2020 at 05:53:58AM +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> > > On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 02:08:31PM -0400, Norman Wilson wrote:
> > > > In my humble-but-correct opinion*, Linux and its
> > > > origins fit into the general topic of UNIX history..
> > > > Warren gets final say, of course, but to encourage
> > > > him I will say: Ploooogie!
> > >
> > > I'm happy with it, you silly twisted boy, you.
> >
> > But +1 to Grant's point not to turn TUHS into a Linux support forum.
> > Quite frankly, I'm old dude who relies on his kids to fix his phone
> > and I can google and find answers to just about any Linux problem.
> > So no need for that here.
> >

-- 
---
Larry McVoy            	     lm at mcvoy.com             http://www.mcvoy.com/lm 

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-17 19:57   ` Larry McVoy
  2020-07-17 20:00     ` Adam Thornton
  2020-07-17 20:03     ` Dan Cross
@ 2020-07-17 20:07     ` Warren Toomey
  2020-07-17 20:12       ` Warner Losh
                         ` (2 more replies)
  2020-07-17 20:08     ` Michael Kjörling
                       ` (2 subsequent siblings)
  5 siblings, 3 replies; 89+ messages in thread
From: Warren Toomey @ 2020-07-17 20:07 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 12:57:18PM -0700, Larry McVoy wrote:
> But +1 to Grant's point not to turn TUHS into a Linux support forum.

Correct. It's all about Heritage on The Unix Heritage Society mailing list.
Chat about the early days of Linux is fine; helping to get Wayland to work
isn't (at least, not for another 20 years or so).

Cheers, Warren

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-17 19:57   ` Larry McVoy
                       ` (2 preceding siblings ...)
  2020-07-17 20:07     ` Warren Toomey
@ 2020-07-17 20:08     ` Michael Kjörling
  2020-07-17 20:55       ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2020-07-18  3:34     ` Tomasz Rola
  2020-07-18 16:45     ` Christopher Browne
  5 siblings, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread
From: Michael Kjörling @ 2020-07-17 20:08 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On 17 Jul 2020 12:57 -0700, from lm@mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy):
> On Sat, Jul 18, 2020 at 05:53:58AM +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
>> I'm happy with it, you silly twisted boy, you.
> 
> But +1 to Grant's point not to turn TUHS into a Linux support forum.
> Quite frankly, I'm old dude who relies on his kids to fix his phone
> and I can google and find answers to just about any Linux problem.
> So no need for that here.

I agree. For topicality, I think it's reasonable to draw the line
somewhere similar to what's already the case with the "true" unixes,
if I'm allowed to use such a designation. As a rule of thumb,
something along the lines of: if it's got a historical application
(say, "how do I get UUCP running on this Linux installation designed
to replicate a 1992 system?") then it's on topic; if it's solely about
modern systems ("how do I get Wayland running with my Nvidia GeForce
RTX 2060 Super?") then it's off topic.

So, really, no significant change there.

-- 
Michael Kjörling • https://michael.kjorling.se • michael@kjorling.se
 “Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?”


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-17 20:07     ` Warren Toomey
@ 2020-07-17 20:12       ` Warner Losh
  2020-07-17 20:19       ` Clem Cole
  2020-07-19  9:54       ` Sergio Pedraja
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 89+ messages in thread
From: Warner Losh @ 2020-07-17 20:12 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Warren Toomey; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society


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On Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 2:08 PM Warren Toomey <wkt@tuhs.org> wrote:

> On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 12:57:18PM -0700, Larry McVoy wrote:
> > But +1 to Grant's point not to turn TUHS into a Linux support forum.
>
> Correct. It's all about Heritage on The Unix Heritage Society mailing list.
> Chat about the early days of Linux is fine; helping to get Wayland to work
> isn't (at least, not for another 20 years or so).
>

That's in line with the rest: I can't come here for FreeBSD or Illumos
support either. But talking about how they forked, etc is fine.

Warner

>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-17 20:07     ` Warren Toomey
  2020-07-17 20:12       ` Warner Losh
@ 2020-07-17 20:19       ` Clem Cole
  2020-07-19  9:54       ` Sergio Pedraja
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 89+ messages in thread
From: Clem Cole @ 2020-07-17 20:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Warren Toomey; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society


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On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 4:08 PM Warren Toomey <wkt@tuhs.org> wrote:

> On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 12:57:18PM -0700, Larry McVoy wrote:
> > But +1 to Grant's point not to turn TUHS into a Linux support forum.
>
> Correct. It's all about Heritage on The Unix Heritage Society mailing list.
> Chat about the early days of Linux is fine; helping to get Wayland to work
> isn't (at least, not for another 20 years or so).
>
> Cheers, Warren
>

+1 works for me.

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-17 20:08     ` Michael Kjörling
@ 2020-07-17 20:55       ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2020-07-17 21:28         ` Michael Kjörling
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread
From: Grant Taylor via TUHS @ 2020-07-17 20:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs


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On 7/17/20 2:08 PM, Michael Kjörling wrote:
> I agree. For topicality, I think it's reasonable to draw the line 
> somewhere

Agree.

I use the following questions as a litmus test, requiring both to be true.

1)  Does it fall into the broad category of Unix or Unix like operating 
systems?

2)  Is it old ~> historic?

I use the "historic car" definition as a guideline for how old "old" is. 
  Specifically 25 years old, or older.

If both of those answers are "yes", then I figure that at worst, someone 
might ask "please take this topic to COFF or elsewhere.

I figure that there's a little bit of wiggle room for other topics, but 
would not be surprised if I needed to justify why it belongs on TUHS vs 
COFF.  E.g. trying to resurrect an ancient protocol used by <bla>.

> similar to what's already the case with the "true" unixes, if I'm 
> allowed to use such a designation.

Eh ... can I get something to wash that down?

I'm "okay" with such designations if you will back them up with a hard 
definition of what qualifies or not.

> As a rule of thumb, something along the lines of: if it's got a 
> historical application (say, "how do I get UUCP running on this 
> Linux installation designed to replicate a 1992 system?") then it's 
> on topic; if it's solely about modern systems ("how do I get Wayland 
> running with my Nvidia GeForce RTX 2060 Super?") then it's off topic.

ACK



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-17 20:55       ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
@ 2020-07-17 21:28         ` Michael Kjörling
  2020-07-18 20:22           ` Ed Carp
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread
From: Michael Kjörling @ 2020-07-17 21:28 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On 17 Jul 2020 14:55 -0600, from tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org (Grant Taylor via TUHS):
>> similar to what's already the case with the "true" unixes, if I'm
>> allowed to use such a designation.
> 
> Eh ... can I get something to wash that down?
> 
> I'm "okay" with such designations if you will back them up with a hard
> definition of what qualifies or not.

Well, that was sort of the point I tried to imply by my "if I'm
allowed to use such a designation". It's hard to define precisely.

For the moment, I think I'll go with "an operating system and
associated userspace toolset that traces an unbroken source code
lineage back to the original UNIX system". With the specific caveat
that my intent was to go _beyond_ that, by including Unix derivatives
such as Linux.

Which, by the way, and also meeting your "25 years old or older"
criteria, looks like it would also include every version (with the
possible exception of the last version or so; that was 1995-1996) of
A/UX.

-- 
Michael Kjörling • https://michael.kjorling.se • michael@kjorling.se
 “Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?”


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-17 20:03     ` Dan Cross
@ 2020-07-17 23:31       ` A. P. Garcia
  2020-07-19 10:26       ` emanuel stiebler
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 89+ messages in thread
From: A. P. Garcia @ 2020-07-17 23:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Dan Cross; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society


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On Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 6:43 PM Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 3:58 PM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:
>
>> Quite frankly, I'm old dude who relies on his kids to fix his phone
>> and I can google and find answers to just about any Linux problem.
>> So no need for that here.
>>
>
> "Back in my day, we had VAXen! And you couldn't carry them anywhere! And
> the disc drives weighed a hundred pounds! AND WE LIKED IT THAT WAY!"
>
> :-D
>
>         - Dan C.
>
>

Those VAXen weren't just colossal physically. What, with that huge address
space, all the meticulous care that was put into making Unix small and
beautiful went right out the window. Truly, it was the beginning of the
end. ;-)

>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-17 19:57   ` Larry McVoy
                       ` (3 preceding siblings ...)
  2020-07-17 20:08     ` Michael Kjörling
@ 2020-07-18  3:34     ` Tomasz Rola
  2020-07-18 16:45     ` Christopher Browne
  5 siblings, 0 replies; 89+ messages in thread
From: Tomasz Rola @ 2020-07-18  3:34 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 12:57:18PM -0700, Larry McVoy wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 18, 2020 at 05:53:58AM +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> > On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 02:08:31PM -0400, Norman Wilson wrote:
> > > In my humble-but-correct opinion*, Linux and its
> > > origins fit into the general topic of UNIX history..
> > > Warren gets final say, of course, but to encourage
> > > him I will say: Ploooogie!
> > 
> > I'm happy with it, you silly twisted boy, you.
> 
> But +1 to Grant's point not to turn TUHS into a Linux support forum.
> Quite frankly, I'm old dude who relies on his kids to fix his phone
> and I can google and find answers to just about any Linux problem.
> So no need for that here.

I think that perhaps some codewords should be adopted for various *nix
flavours/implementations/reimplementations. For example: linux =
frogboat. Nobody will ever come here to ask about fixing problem with
this.

And besides, I would really not mind if there was a single place where
I could read something about frogboat and other dolls. Reusing this
list for such purpose is ok for me, since I am already subscribed.

-- 
Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola@bigfoot.com             **

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-17 19:57   ` Larry McVoy
                       ` (4 preceding siblings ...)
  2020-07-18  3:34     ` Tomasz Rola
@ 2020-07-18 16:45     ` Christopher Browne
  2020-07-19  7:32       ` Lars Brinkhoff
  5 siblings, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread
From: Christopher Browne @ 2020-07-18 16:45 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Larry McVoy; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society


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On Fri, 17 Jul 2020 at 15:58, Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:

> On Sat, Jul 18, 2020 at 05:53:58AM +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> > On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 02:08:31PM -0400, Norman Wilson wrote:
> > > In my humble-but-correct opinion*, Linux and its
> > > origins fit into the general topic of UNIX history..
> > > Warren gets final say, of course, but to encourage
> > > him I will say: Ploooogie!
> >
> > I'm happy with it, you silly twisted boy, you.
>
> But +1 to Grant's point not to turn TUHS into a Linux support forum.
> Quite frankly, I'm old dude who relies on his kids to fix his phone
> and I can google and find answers to just about any Linux problem.
> So no need for that here.
>

I think back to those mouldy oldie days, and my set of early things were...
- First got exposed to BSD 4.1 with MFCF extensions ('86)
- Couldn't afford *real* hardware, so I tracked whatever could run on
   Atari ST, and the biggest improvement I was able to get there was
   to be able to run Bash, early GCC, and sundry GNU tools, where
   I couldn't spawn multiple processes, but there was still plenty of useful
- Then followed the MiNT period (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MiNT)
   where we accepted that MiNT is NOT TOS, but still lended a POSIX
   interface, only to be briefly overjoyed at the rename to "MiNT is
   NOW TOS"
- First paid work on Unix ('93) involved SCO (where that was the
  debugging platform for some C code targeting VMS!); that was a
  platform where I was pretty overjoyed to discover I could run multiple
  terms on a single console.  And found it odd when people thought this
  was a huge innovation of Linux...

I'm not sure I have much that's extraordinarily interesting to say about
MiNT, but I'd think that to be pretty on-topic for TUHS :-).
-- 
When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the
question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?"

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-17 21:28         ` Michael Kjörling
@ 2020-07-18 20:22           ` Ed Carp
  2020-07-18 20:29             ` Warner Losh
  2020-07-22  3:41             ` Jason
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 89+ messages in thread
From: Ed Carp @ 2020-07-18 20:22 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Michael Kjörling; +Cc: tuhs

Oh, boy, now you've got me started. I worked on A/UX at Apple back
around 1992. I'd love to find a copy of that!

On 7/17/20, Michael Kjörling <michael@kjorling.se> wrote:

> Which, by the way, and also meeting your "25 years old or older"
> criteria, looks like it would also include every version (with the
> possible exception of the last version or so; that was 1995-1996) of
> A/UX.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-18 20:22           ` Ed Carp
@ 2020-07-18 20:29             ` Warner Losh
  2020-07-19  2:31               ` Gregg Levine
                                 ` (2 more replies)
  2020-07-22  3:41             ` Jason
  1 sibling, 3 replies; 89+ messages in thread
From: Warner Losh @ 2020-07-18 20:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ed Carp; +Cc: TUHS main list


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On Sat, Jul 18, 2020, 2:23 PM Ed Carp <erc@pobox.com> wrote:

> Oh, boy, now you've got me started. I worked on A/UX at Apple back
> around 1992. I'd love to find a copy of that!
>

Google can find it, if you really need it.

Warner

On 7/17/20, Michael Kjörling <michael@kjorling.se> wrote:
>
> > Which, by the way, and also meeting your "25 years old or older"
> > criteria, looks like it would also include every version (with the
> > possible exception of the last version or so; that was 1995-1996) of
> > A/UX.
>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-18 20:29             ` Warner Losh
@ 2020-07-19  2:31               ` Gregg Levine
  2020-07-19  3:46               ` Wesley Parish
  2020-07-20  0:24               ` [TUHS] Linux is on-topic Ed Carp
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 89+ messages in thread
From: Gregg Levine @ 2020-07-19  2:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: TUHS main list

Hello!
Wow. I actually met with the folks at Apple, here in NYC regarding that OS.
-----
Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8@gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."

On Sat, Jul 18, 2020 at 4:31 PM Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jul 18, 2020, 2:23 PM Ed Carp <erc@pobox.com> wrote:
>>
>> Oh, boy, now you've got me started. I worked on A/UX at Apple back
>> around 1992. I'd love to find a copy of that!
>
>
> Google can find it, if you really need it.
>
> Warner
>
>> On 7/17/20, Michael Kjörling <michael@kjorling.se> wrote:
>>
>> > Which, by the way, and also meeting your "25 years old or older"
>> > criteria, looks like it would also include every version (with the
>> > possible exception of the last version or so; that was 1995-1996) of
>> > A/UX.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-18 20:29             ` Warner Losh
  2020-07-19  2:31               ` Gregg Levine
@ 2020-07-19  3:46               ` Wesley Parish
  2020-07-19  4:42                 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2020-07-20  0:24               ` [TUHS] Linux is on-topic Ed Carp
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread
From: Wesley Parish @ 2020-07-19  3:46 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Warner Losh; +Cc: TUHS main list

I remember in the early 90s, just when I was needing to use computers,
thus getting actively interested in them, reading an article in one of
the Mac mags on A/UX and thinking, that and a top performing
Macintosh! life couldn't get any sweeter!

Almost thirty years later, worked my way through Mac, MS/PC DOS plus
Windows, OS/2, Windows NT/2K,XP/7/8.1/10, Linux and running a few OSes
now on virtual machines, and I'd still love to have that running.

Though I suspect it'd be more in the background ...

Wesley Parish

On 7/19/20, Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 18, 2020, 2:23 PM Ed Carp <erc@pobox.com> wrote:
>
>> Oh, boy, now you've got me started. I worked on A/UX at Apple back
>> around 1992. I'd love to find a copy of that!
>>
>
> Google can find it, if you really need it.
>
> Warner
>
> On 7/17/20, Michael Kjörling <michael@kjorling.se> wrote:
>>
>> > Which, by the way, and also meeting your "25 years old or older"
>> > criteria, looks like it would also include every version (with the
>> > possible exception of the last version or so; that was 1995-1996) of
>> > A/UX.
>>
>

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-19  3:46               ` Wesley Parish
@ 2020-07-19  4:42                 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2020-07-19 18:01                   ` Michael Parson
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread
From: Grant Taylor via TUHS @ 2020-07-19  4:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs


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On 7/18/20 9:46 PM, Wesley Parish wrote:
> I'd still love to have that running.

I think I've seen articles about people running it running 
virtualization / emulation.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-18 16:45     ` Christopher Browne
@ 2020-07-19  7:32       ` Lars Brinkhoff
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 89+ messages in thread
From: Lars Brinkhoff @ 2020-07-19  7:32 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Christopher Browne; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

Christopher Browne wrote:
> - Then followed the MiNT period (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MiNT)
> where we accepted that MiNT is NOT TOS, but still lended a POSIX
> interface

Another MiNT user here.  After that, I tried both NetBSD and Linux on a
Falcon030.  NetBSD wouldn't work, which may be why I keep to Linux now.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-17 20:07     ` Warren Toomey
  2020-07-17 20:12       ` Warner Losh
  2020-07-17 20:19       ` Clem Cole
@ 2020-07-19  9:54       ` Sergio Pedraja
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 89+ messages in thread
From: Sergio Pedraja @ 2020-07-19  9:54 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Warren Toomey; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society


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El vie., 17 jul. 2020 22:08, Warren Toomey <wkt@tuhs.org> escribió:

> On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 12:57:18PM -0700, Larry McVoy wrote:
> > But +1 to Grant's point not to turn TUHS into a Linux support forum.
>
> Correct. It's all about Heritage on The Unix Heritage Society mailing list.
> Chat about the early days of Linux is fine; helping to get Wayland to work
> isn't (at least, not for another 20 years or so).
>

Absolutely right :-)

Sergio

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-17 20:03     ` Dan Cross
  2020-07-17 23:31       ` A. P. Garcia
@ 2020-07-19 10:26       ` emanuel stiebler
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 89+ messages in thread
From: emanuel stiebler @ 2020-07-19 10:26 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Dan Cross, Larry McVoy; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

On 2020-07-17 16:03, Dan Cross wrote:

> "Back in my day, we had VAXen! And you couldn't carry them anywhere! And
> the disc drives weighed a hundred pounds! AND WE LIKED IT THAT WAY!"
> 
> :-D

That's why DEC made also the MicroVAX. I had once a MVII/BA23 in my
samsonite. Weird look at customs, but worked ;-)

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-19  4:42                 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
@ 2020-07-19 18:01                   ` Michael Parson
  2020-07-20  8:47                     ` [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic] arnold
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread
From: Michael Parson @ 2020-07-19 18:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On 2020-07-18 23:42, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote:
> On 7/18/20 9:46 PM, Wesley Parish wrote:
>> I'd still love to have that running.
> 
> I think I've seen articles about people running it running
> virtualization / emulation.

As far as I've been able to find, there is only one emulator that can 
run A/UX, shoebill[0].

I've got a Mac Quadra 950 with a Workgroup Server 95 card in it in the 
garage that I've been planning on someday trying to get A/UX running on, 
but haven't found enough round tuits.

Maybe if someone could rip the 680[34]0+MMU bits out of Win/FS-UAE 
(Amiga emulator) and patch them into Basilisk II (Mac 68K emulator), 
A/UX might work there.

-- 
Michael Parson
Pflugerville, TX
KF5LGQ

[0] https://github.com/emaculation/shoebill


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-18 20:29             ` Warner Losh
  2020-07-19  2:31               ` Gregg Levine
  2020-07-19  3:46               ` Wesley Parish
@ 2020-07-20  0:24               ` Ed Carp
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 89+ messages in thread
From: Ed Carp @ 2020-07-20  0:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Warner Losh; +Cc: TUHS main list

I look about once a year. Haven't found it yet. :(<div
id="DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2"><br />
<table style="border-top: 1px solid #D3D4DE;">
	<tr>
        <td style="width: 55px; padding-top: 13px;"><a
href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=icon"
target="_blank"><img
src="https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-animated-no-repeat-v1.gif"
alt="" width="46" height="29" style="width: 46px; height: 29px;"
/></a></td>
		<td style="width: 470px; padding-top: 12px; color: #41424e;
font-size: 13px; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
line-height: 18px;">Virus-free. <a
href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=link"
target="_blank" style="color: #4453ea;">www.avast.com</a>
		</td>
	</tr>
</table><a href="#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2" width="1"
height="1"></a></div>

On 7/18/20, Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 18, 2020, 2:23 PM Ed Carp <erc@pobox.com> wrote:
>
>> Oh, boy, now you've got me started. I worked on A/UX at Apple back
>> around 1992. I'd love to find a copy of that!
>>
>
> Google can find it, if you really need it.
>
> Warner
>
> On 7/17/20, Michael Kjörling <michael@kjorling.se> wrote:
>>
>> > Which, by the way, and also meeting your "25 years old or older"
>> > criteria, looks like it would also include every version (with the
>> > possible exception of the last version or so; that was 1995-1996) of
>> > A/UX.
>>
>

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] A/UX [was  Linux is on-topic]
  2020-07-19 18:01                   ` Michael Parson
@ 2020-07-20  8:47                     ` arnold
  2020-07-20  9:46                       ` Arno Griffioen
                                         ` (3 more replies)
  0 siblings, 4 replies; 89+ messages in thread
From: arnold @ 2020-07-20  8:47 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: mparson; +Cc: tuhs

ISTR that A/UX was nothing special as a Unix.  Am I failing to remember?

I had had a DMD 5620 at my job, and after I moved to a different place
and requested one, they graced me with a Macintosh.  It could sort of
do multiple windows, but it was like having a piper cub after being
used to a 747.

Other interesting bits for the Mac to maybe recover would be Mach Ten,
which ran Mach on top of regular MacOS. (Talk about inverted pyramids...)
There was also a Mach/Linux that I think ran on the Mac at some point.

Arnold

Michael Parson <mparson@bl.org> wrote:

> On 2020-07-18 23:42, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote:
> > On 7/18/20 9:46 PM, Wesley Parish wrote:
> >> I'd still love to have that running.
> > 
> > I think I've seen articles about people running it running
> > virtualization / emulation.
>
> As far as I've been able to find, there is only one emulator that can 
> run A/UX, shoebill[0].
>
> I've got a Mac Quadra 950 with a Workgroup Server 95 card in it in the 
> garage that I've been planning on someday trying to get A/UX running on, 
> but haven't found enough round tuits.
>
> Maybe if someone could rip the 680[34]0+MMU bits out of Win/FS-UAE 
> (Amiga emulator) and patch them into Basilisk II (Mac 68K emulator), 
> A/UX might work there.
>
> -- 
> Michael Parson
> Pflugerville, TX
> KF5LGQ
>
> [0] https://github.com/emaculation/shoebill


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was  Linux is on-topic]
  2020-07-20  8:47                     ` [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic] arnold
@ 2020-07-20  9:46                       ` Arno Griffioen
  2020-07-20 16:35                         ` Arthur Krewat
                                           ` (2 more replies)
  2020-07-20  9:48                       ` Andrew Warkentin
                                         ` (2 subsequent siblings)
  3 siblings, 3 replies; 89+ messages in thread
From: Arno Griffioen @ 2020-07-20  9:46 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 02:47:08AM -0600, arnold@skeeve.com wrote:
> ISTR that A/UX was nothing special as a Unix.  Am I failing to remember?

No, that's absolutely true.

It was a fairly plain-jane SVR2.2 with some back-ported bits from SVR3 (and 
perhaps some SVR4?), mostly for networking and filesystem work.

However, it's an interesting setup in the fact how it ran the a normal MacOS
instance basically 'virtualised' next to it and allowed some limited 
interaction between the two.

Also the Mac IIfx was basically desgined and built for AU/X and had on-board 
hardware that was way over-specced for plain MacOS. The hardware really
was more UNIX workstation than Mac.

Eg. it had full DMA support on most I/O and such.. Unheard of on simpler 
macs and not even used by MacOS of the day which simply ignored that
an ran everything in PIO mode happily.

Mid 90's I did a number of UUCP and (Send)Mail, Usenet, etc. setups on 
these and by some creative interaction with the MacOS side and clients
it allowed the 'Mac ecosystem' LAN and software of the day to send and receive
'internet' mail and such. (leased lines in Europe were very, very expensive
and slow until the late 90's and early 00's so UUCP and dailup was quite
common for a long time for small businesses..)

It was a time that Apple engineers were really making some strides to
kickstart a change to a *IX based multitasking MacOS, but it all fizzled
out as A/UX was never succesful and Apple at the time was not in the 
best of spots finance-wise.

As such, it's an 'interesting oddball' in UNIX history IMHO, but not from
a viewpoint of having brought anything new or revolutionary to the table 
that has stuck around.

							Bye, Arno.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-07-20  8:47                     ` [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic] arnold
  2020-07-20  9:46                       ` Arno Griffioen
@ 2020-07-20  9:48                       ` Andrew Warkentin
  2020-07-20 11:49                         ` Larry McVoy
  2020-07-20 12:32                       ` Derrik Walker v2.0
  2020-07-20 14:28                       ` Clem Cole
  3 siblings, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread
From: Andrew Warkentin @ 2020-07-20  9:48 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On 7/19/20, Michael Parson <mparson@bl.org> wrote:
>
> Maybe if someone could rip the 680[34]0+MMU bits out of Win/FS-UAE
> (Amiga emulator) and patch them into Basilisk II (Mac 68K emulator),
> A/UX might work there.
>
Basilisk will never run anything other than Mac OS, not because it
lacks an MMU, but because it HLEs everything other than the CPU,
patching the Mac OS ROM to call drivers implemented on the host. A
better idea would be to fix MAME's NCR 5380 SCSI device model
to work properly, because AFAIK that's the only thing that stops it
from running A/UX. I did look at it a bit quite a while ago, but had
other stuff to work on, so it fell by the wayside for me.

On 7/20/20, arnold@skeeve.com <arnold@skeeve.com> wrote:
> ISTR that A/UX was nothing special as a Unix.  Am I failing to remember?
>
> I had had a DMD 5620 at my job, and after I moved to a different place
> and requested one, they graced me with a Macintosh.  It could sort of
> do multiple windows, but it was like having a piper cub after being
> used to a 747.
>
> Other interesting bits for the Mac to maybe recover would be Mach Ten,
> which ran Mach on top of regular MacOS. (Talk about inverted pyramids...)
> There was also a Mach/Linux that I think ran on the Mac at some point.
>
A/UX runs Mac OS as a Unix process (its default GUI is Mac OS although
it does also support a traditional X server), making it the opposite
of MachTen. It has considerable integration between Mac OS and Unix,
and supports "hybrid" programs (Unix programs that make Mac OS system
calls and Mac OS programs that make Unix system calls) (which I don't
think MachTen supports, but I'm not completely sure of that). It is
one of only two Unices that I'm aware of that runs another OS in a
process to provide its main GUI (the other is a much more recent Linux
distribution that runs AROS; I'm not counting  things like running
Windows under Merge or VP/IX because those were usually used in
addition to X11).

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-07-20  9:48                       ` Andrew Warkentin
@ 2020-07-20 11:49                         ` Larry McVoy
  2020-07-20 14:36                           ` Clem Cole
                                             ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 89+ messages in thread
From: Larry McVoy @ 2020-07-20 11:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Andrew Warkentin; +Cc: tuhs

On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 03:48:29AM -0600, Andrew Warkentin wrote:
> A/UX runs Mac OS as a Unix process (its default GUI is Mac OS although
> it does also support a traditional X server), making it the opposite
> of MachTen. It has considerable integration between Mac OS and Unix,
> and supports "hybrid" programs (Unix programs that make Mac OS system
> calls and Mac OS programs that make Unix system calls) (which I don't
> think MachTen supports, but I'm not completely sure of that). It is
> one of only two Unices that I'm aware of that runs another OS in a
> process to provide its main GUI (the other is a much more recent Linux
> distribution that runs AROS; I'm not counting  things like running
> Windows under Merge or VP/IX because those were usually used in
> addition to X11).

This isn't quite the same but Victor Yodaiken wrote a real time kernel
that ran all of Linux as a user process.  Super cool idea and it worked
great, he would demo it sampling the parallel port while Linux was running
some X11 perf thing, tarring up /usr and untarring on nfs://server/tmp/usr
and doing a ftp transfer.  Basically beating the crap out of Linux as
hard as he could while running a real time sampler and it never missed.

Clem should pay attention, in my opinion, this is how you do Unix and
real time.  Because Unix is time sharing and throughput, that is the
opposite of what real time is.  Wedging real time into Unix is a mistake.

http://mcvoy.com/lm/papers/rtlmanifesto.pdf

--lm

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was  Linux is on-topic]
  2020-07-20  8:47                     ` [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic] arnold
  2020-07-20  9:46                       ` Arno Griffioen
  2020-07-20  9:48                       ` Andrew Warkentin
@ 2020-07-20 12:32                       ` Derrik Walker v2.0
  2020-07-20 12:54                         ` Andrew Warkentin
  2020-07-22  3:44                         ` Jason
  2020-07-20 14:28                       ` Clem Cole
  3 siblings, 2 replies; 89+ messages in thread
From: Derrik Walker v2.0 @ 2020-07-20 12:32 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

I used Mach10 and Later MkLinux as my UNIXy systems while in College before I got my first Sun Workstation in the mid ’90’s. 

Interestingly enough. MkLinux was actually ported to Old World PowerMacs by Apple and HP.  I think they also made.a version PCs too.

And Mach10 was interesting.  Different.  I also had Minix for the Mac, it worked much the same, as an app that sat onto of MacOS.  

- Derrik 

> On Jul 20, 2020, at 4:47 AM, arnold@skeeve.com wrote:
> 
> ISTR that A/UX was nothing special as a Unix.  Am I failing to remember?
> 
> I had had a DMD 5620 at my job, and after I moved to a different place
> and requested one, they graced me with a Macintosh.  It could sort of
> do multiple windows, but it was like having a piper cub after being
> used to a 747.
> 
> Other interesting bits for the Mac to maybe recover would be Mach Ten,
> which ran Mach on top of regular MacOS. (Talk about inverted pyramids...)
> There was also a Mach/Linux that I think ran on the Mac at some point.
> 
> Arnold
> 
> Michael Parson <mparson@bl.org> wrote:
> 
>> On 2020-07-18 23:42, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote:
>>> On 7/18/20 9:46 PM, Wesley Parish wrote:
>>>> I'd still love to have that running.
>>> 
>>> I think I've seen articles about people running it running
>>> virtualization / emulation.
>> 
>> As far as I've been able to find, there is only one emulator that can 
>> run A/UX, shoebill[0].
>> 
>> I've got a Mac Quadra 950 with a Workgroup Server 95 card in it in the 
>> garage that I've been planning on someday trying to get A/UX running on, 
>> but haven't found enough round tuits.
>> 
>> Maybe if someone could rip the 680[34]0+MMU bits out of Win/FS-UAE 
>> (Amiga emulator) and patch them into Basilisk II (Mac 68K emulator), 
>> A/UX might work there.
>> 
>> -- 
>> Michael Parson
>> Pflugerville, TX
>> KF5LGQ
>> 
>> [0] https://github.com/emaculation/shoebill
> 


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-07-20 12:32                       ` Derrik Walker v2.0
@ 2020-07-20 12:54                         ` Andrew Warkentin
  2020-07-21  1:50                           ` Larry McVoy
  2020-07-22  3:44                         ` Jason
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread
From: Andrew Warkentin @ 2020-07-20 12:54 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On 7/20/20, Derrik Walker v2.0 <dwalker@doomd.net> wrote:
>
> Interestingly enough. MkLinux was actually ported to Old World PowerMacs by
> Apple and HP.  I think they also made.a version PCs too.
>

There was an early version of MkLinux for PCs but I'm not sure if
there was ever a complete distribution.

On 7/20/20, Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:
>
> This isn't quite the same but Victor Yodaiken wrote a real time kernel
> that ran all of Linux as a user process.  Super cool idea and it worked
> great, he would demo it sampling the parallel port while Linux was running
> some X11 perf thing, tarring up /usr and untarring on nfs://server/tmp/usr
> and doing a ftp transfer.  Basically beating the crap out of Linux as
> hard as he could while running a real time sampler and it never missed.
>
> Clem should pay attention, in my opinion, this is how you do Unix and
> real time.  Because Unix is time sharing and throughput, that is the
> opposite of what real time is.  Wedging real time into Unix is a mistake.
>

QNX manages to do realtime fairly decently while still being
Unix-like, although it's certainly not a conventional Unix. With a
multi-server OS with a properly designed microkernel, it is possible
for realtime threads to more or less ignore the fact that they're
running on a Unix-like OS (provided that they can access some kind of
IPC API that closely matches that of the kernel) since all the OS
services other than the microkernel are running beside them at
non-realtime priorities, and not underneath them as in a conventional
OS. It's kind of doing the same thing as running a Unix kernel as a
process under a realtime kernel, but the Unix environment is
implemented by servers and libraries instead of a monolithic kernel.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-07-20  8:47                     ` [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic] arnold
                                         ` (2 preceding siblings ...)
  2020-07-20 12:32                       ` Derrik Walker v2.0
@ 2020-07-20 14:28                       ` Clem Cole
  2020-07-22  3:50                         ` Jason
  3 siblings, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread
From: Clem Cole @ 2020-07-20 14:28 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Aharon Robbins; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society


[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 627 bytes --]

On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 4:49 AM <arnold@skeeve.com> wrote:

> Other interesting bits for the Mac to maybe recover would be Mach Ten,
> which ran Mach on top of regular MacOS. (Talk about inverted pyramids...)
>
Interesting (not sure I would say 'cool').  I saw running it once next to
NeXT Cube when I was visiting some friends in the Mach group at CMU at some
point. I had always been under the impression it just used MacOS 7 to load
it and then took over the system.  But I never ran 'under it' as it were.

> There was also a Mach/Linux that I think ran on the Mac at some point.

I think I remember seeing that announced.

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-07-20 11:49                         ` Larry McVoy
@ 2020-07-20 14:36                           ` Clem Cole
  2020-07-20 17:24                           ` John Cowan
  2020-07-20 22:11                           ` Ed Carp
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 89+ messages in thread
From: Clem Cole @ 2020-07-20 14:36 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Larry McVoy; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society


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On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 7:51 AM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:

> This isn't quite the same but Victor Yodaiken wrote a real time kernel
> that ran all of Linux as a user process.  Super cool idea and it worked
> great, he would demo it sampling the parallel port while Linux was running
> some X11 perf thing, tarring up /usr and untarring on nfs://server/tmp/usr
> and doing a ftp transfer.  Basically beating the crap out of Linux as
> hard as he could while running a real time sampler and it never missed.
>
> Clem should pay attention, in my opinion, this is how you do Unix and
> real time.  Because Unix is time sharing and throughput, that is the
> opposite of what real time is.  Wedging real time into Unix is a mistake.
>
> http://mcvoy.com/lm/papers/rtlmanifesto.pdf

As often true, I really don't disagree with you.  Around the time I left
Masscomp for Stellar we were working on a rewrite with some ex-CMU folks
(Doug ... I don't remember is his last name now) that used a preemptive RT
microkernel under the covers and then supplied RTU system calls.  Tom and I
left for Stellar and a couple of other people left too.  This was time of
the reign of Mr. Potato Head (ex-IBM guy that was named CEO) and things
blew up.

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-07-20  9:46                       ` Arno Griffioen
@ 2020-07-20 16:35                         ` Arthur Krewat
  2020-07-20 17:44                           ` Arno Griffioen
  2020-07-20 19:07                         ` Rich Morin
  2020-07-20 20:20                         ` Ed Carp
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread
From: Arthur Krewat @ 2020-07-20 16:35 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On 7/20/2020 5:46 AM, Arno Griffioen wrote:
> Mid 90's I did a number of UUCP and (Send)Mail, Usenet, etc. setups on
> these and by some creative interaction with the MacOS side and clients
> it allowed the 'Mac ecosystem' LAN and software of the day to send and receive
> 'internet' mail and such.
I was involved in USENET back in the early-to-mid 90's, and never heard 
of Mac stuff going on, but then, I'm in the US. The USENET stuff I built 
was Intel as front-end w/SVR4.2, and SPARC (-LX) as the backend file 
server. I never realized there was any sort of "-nix" for Macs back then.

art k.


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-07-20 11:49                         ` Larry McVoy
  2020-07-20 14:36                           ` Clem Cole
@ 2020-07-20 17:24                           ` John Cowan
  2020-07-20 22:11                           ` Ed Carp
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 89+ messages in thread
From: John Cowan @ 2020-07-20 17:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Larry McVoy; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society


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On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 7:51 AM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:


> This isn't quite the same but Victor Yodaiken wrote a real time kernel
> that ran all of Linux as a user process.


The Bell Labs MERT system did almost the same thing: its low-priority
process was a Unix emulator along the lines of MS WSL 1.  See <
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-Environment_Real-Time> for basics and
links.

Similarly, the PDP-8's modular real-time system RTS/8 had a symbiotic
relationship with OS/8, the single-user operating system; you programmed
and built instances of RTS/8 under OS/8 and then booted them, but if you
had enough memory, you could include the OS8 [sic] task in the RTS build
and it would run OS/8 as the lowest priority task.



John Cowan          http://vrici.lojban.org/~cowan        cowan@ccil.org
This great college [Trinity], of this ancient university [Cambridge],
has seen some strange sights. It has seen Wordsworth drunk and Porson
sober. And here am I, a better poet than Porson, and a better scholar
than Wordsworth, somewhere betwixt and between.  --A.E. Housman

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-07-20 16:35                         ` Arthur Krewat
@ 2020-07-20 17:44                           ` Arno Griffioen
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 89+ messages in thread
From: Arno Griffioen @ 2020-07-20 17:44 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 12:35:44PM -0400, Arthur Krewat wrote:
> On 7/20/2020 5:46 AM, Arno Griffioen wrote:
> > Mid 90's I did a number of UUCP and (Send)Mail, Usenet, etc. setups on
> > these and by some creative interaction with the MacOS side and clients
> > it allowed the 'Mac ecosystem' LAN and software of the day to send and receive
> > 'internet' mail and such.
> I was involved in USENET back in the early-to-mid 90's, and never heard of
> Mac stuff going on, but then, I'm in the US. The USENET stuff I built was
> Intel as front-end w/SVR4.2, and SPARC (-LX) as the backend file server. I
> never realized there was any sort of "-nix" for Macs back then.

To be fair.. The number of installs I did on SCO boxes and such far, far 
outnumbered those of A/UX ones. 

They were pretty special in those days, not to mention horrendously expensive 
if you compared a fully loaded IIfx with A/UX to a 486 with SCO UNIX, even on 
a decent Compaq.

SCO being pretty much the bread&butter of most small to medium companies
at that time to run things like their accounting software and such across 
many remote terminals (either actual ones or other PC's telnetting in..).

							Bye, Arno.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was  Linux is on-topic]
  2020-07-20  9:46                       ` Arno Griffioen
  2020-07-20 16:35                         ` Arthur Krewat
@ 2020-07-20 19:07                         ` Rich Morin
  2020-07-20 19:45                           ` Al Kossow
  2020-07-20 20:20                         ` Ed Carp
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread
From: Rich Morin @ 2020-07-20 19:07 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

My spouse (Vicki Brown) worked in the initial A/UX group and I contracted for it (reviewing the man pages).  Here are a few historical tidbits...

A number of A/UX boxes were purchased and immediately reloaded with Mac OS (because only the A/UX boxes were available with 80 MB disk drives).

A/UX had an "Eschatology" feature whose purpose was to bring a damaged operting system back to a known working state.  It was based on a text file of metadata and a small set of replacement files (e.g., commands).

The A/UX installation kit was delivered on several dozen floppy disks.  In order to minimize the number of disks, Vicki implemented a bin packing algorithm.  It grabbed promising sets of files, compressed them, and checked the resulting size.

One challenge in building the kit was creating a boot floppy.  To make this possible, Vicki created a precursor to busybox: a single program which ran under various names, providing subsets of common commands' functionalities.  Because this shared the libraries, it saved lots of space...

-r


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-07-20 19:07                         ` Rich Morin
@ 2020-07-20 19:45                           ` Al Kossow
  2020-07-20 19:49                             ` Al Kossow
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread
From: Al Kossow @ 2020-07-20 19:45 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On 7/20/20 12:07 PM, Rich Morin wrote:
> A number of A/UX boxes were purchased and immediately reloaded with Mac OS (because only the A/UX boxes were available with 80 MB disk drives).

A/UX didn't get a whole lot of love inside Apple in the 80s.
I remember going to the talk on the version that introduced Mac as a process and
there were less than a dozen people who attended.




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-07-20 19:45                           ` Al Kossow
@ 2020-07-20 19:49                             ` Al Kossow
  2020-07-24  0:01                               ` Chris Hanson
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread
From: Al Kossow @ 2020-07-20 19:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On 7/20/20 12:45 PM, Al Kossow wrote:

> A/UX didn't get a whole lot of love inside Apple in the 80s.
> I remember going to the talk on the version that introduced Mac as a process and
> there were less than a dozen people who attended.
> 
> 
> 

I also had one of the few copies of MacMach that ran on a IIfx.
No one in Cupertino was very interested in Mach.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-07-20  9:46                       ` Arno Griffioen
  2020-07-20 16:35                         ` Arthur Krewat
  2020-07-20 19:07                         ` Rich Morin
@ 2020-07-20 20:20                         ` Ed Carp
  2020-07-20 21:02                           ` John Cowan
  2020-07-24  0:02                           ` Chris Hanson
  2 siblings, 2 replies; 89+ messages in thread
From: Ed Carp @ 2020-07-20 20:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Arno Griffioen; +Cc: tuhs

On 7/20/20, Arno Griffioen <arno.griffioen@ieee.org> wrote:

> As such, it's an 'interesting oddball' in UNIX history IMHO, but not from
> a viewpoint of having brought anything new or revolutionary to the table
> that has stuck around.

Except that it had a rudimentary option completion feature that was
sort of cool. When you typed "ls", for example, it would pop up a
window that would show you all the options that you could select for
that command. That was new and different. Too bad it didn't stick
around.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-07-20 20:20                         ` Ed Carp
@ 2020-07-20 21:02                           ` John Cowan
  2020-07-20 22:27                             ` Ed Carp
                                               ` (2 more replies)
  2020-07-24  0:02                           ` Chris Hanson
  1 sibling, 3 replies; 89+ messages in thread
From: John Cowan @ 2020-07-20 21:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ed Carp; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society


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On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 4:21 PM Ed Carp <erc@pobox.com> wrote:

Except that it had a rudimentary option completion feature that was
> sort of cool. When you typed "ls", for example, it would pop up a
> window that would show you all the options that you could select for
> that command. That was new and different. Too bad it didn't stick
> around.
>

I remember reading about something like that, though it's not connected in
my mind with A/UX.  What I do remember is that you had to type "Ls" to pop
up the options window: After all, most of the time you don't *want* options
for  "ls".  On a text terminal, the top half of the screen became the
options window; its scrolling content was restored when the window was
dismissed.

The window had checkboxes corresponding to the options and text fields
corresponding to their values, if any.  I can't remember if it parsed the
output of --help or equivalent, though.  I also don't recall if such
commands were supported in pipelines, though I see no reason why they
should not have been.



John Cowan          http://vrici.lojban.org/~cowan        cowan@ccil.org
Samuel Johnson on playing the violin: "Difficult do you call it, Sir?
I wish it were impossible."

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-07-20 11:49                         ` Larry McVoy
  2020-07-20 14:36                           ` Clem Cole
  2020-07-20 17:24                           ` John Cowan
@ 2020-07-20 22:11                           ` Ed Carp
  2020-07-21  1:04                             ` Larry McVoy
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread
From: Ed Carp @ 2020-07-20 22:11 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Larry McVoy; +Cc: tuhs

On 7/20/20, Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:

> Clem should pay attention, in my opinion, this is how you do Unix and
> real time.  Because Unix is time sharing and throughput, that is the
> opposite of what real time is.  Wedging real time into Unix is a mistake.

Agreed.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-07-20 21:02                           ` John Cowan
@ 2020-07-20 22:27                             ` Ed Carp
  2020-07-24  0:04                             ` Chris Hanson
  2020-07-31 23:02                             ` Dave Horsfall
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 89+ messages in thread
From: Ed Carp @ 2020-07-20 22:27 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: John Cowan; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

On 7/20/20, John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org> wrote:

> The window had checkboxes corresponding to the options and text fields
> corresponding to their values, if any.  I can't remember if it parsed the
> output of --help or equivalent, though.  I also don't recall if such
> commands were supported in pipelines, though I see no reason why they
> should not have been.

They were, as I recall. I don't recall if it parsed --help or if it
was builtin via another mechanism.

As someone else mentioned, A/UX didn't get a lot of love in Cupertino. Oh, well.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-07-20 22:11                           ` Ed Carp
@ 2020-07-21  1:04                             ` Larry McVoy
  2020-07-22  3:13                               ` tytso
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread
From: Larry McVoy @ 2020-07-21  1:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ed Carp; +Cc: tuhs

On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 05:11:48PM -0500, Ed Carp wrote:
> On 7/20/20, Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:
> 
> > Clem should pay attention, in my opinion, this is how you do Unix and
> > real time.  Because Unix is time sharing and throughput, that is the
> > opposite of what real time is.  Wedging real time into Unix is a mistake.
> 
> Agreed.

So many people get this wrong, they want to make "real time" in Unix "good
enough" and it messes with everything.  Victor's idea was awesome.

And you know what sucks?  I was on the Usenix review committee and I gave
it 2 thumbs up but someone else, looking at you, Rob, said it was not 
interesting because the real time kernel wasn't POSIX.  Even though the
real time kernel had pipes, signals, and shared memory with Linux.

He was a bigger deal than me so it didn't get published.

I love the Rob in question, not Pike, but this was one of the most bone
headed calls I've ever seen him make.  The world needed to see this.

Wind River bought it and buried it because it competed with their stuff
that was nowhere near as good.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-07-20 12:54                         ` Andrew Warkentin
@ 2020-07-21  1:50                           ` Larry McVoy
  2020-07-21  2:30                             ` Gregg Levine
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread
From: Larry McVoy @ 2020-07-21  1:50 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Andrew Warkentin; +Cc: tuhs

On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 06:54:40AM -0600, Andrew Warkentin wrote:
> On 7/20/20, Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:
> > This isn't quite the same but Victor Yodaiken wrote a real time kernel
> > that ran all of Linux as a user process.  Super cool idea and it worked
> > great, he would demo it sampling the parallel port while Linux was running
> > some X11 perf thing, tarring up /usr and untarring on nfs://server/tmp/usr
> > and doing a ftp transfer.  Basically beating the crap out of Linux as
> > hard as he could while running a real time sampler and it never missed.
> >
> > Clem should pay attention, in my opinion, this is how you do Unix and
> > real time.  Because Unix is time sharing and throughput, that is the
> > opposite of what real time is.  Wedging real time into Unix is a mistake.
> >
> 
> QNX manages to do realtime fairly decently while still being
> Unix-like, although it's certainly not a conventional Unix. With a
> multi-server OS with a properly designed microkernel, it is possible
> for realtime threads to more or less ignore the fact that they're
> running on a Unix-like OS (provided that they can access some kind of
> IPC API that closely matches that of the kernel) since all the OS
> services other than the microkernel are running beside them at
> non-realtime priorities, and not underneath them as in a conventional
> OS. It's kind of doing the same thing as running a Unix kernel as a
> process under a realtime kernel, but the Unix environment is
> implemented by servers and libraries instead of a monolithic kernel.

QNX is awesome.

I was friends with Dan Hildebrandt, he was one of the 3 people who were
allowed to touch the microkernel code.  That kernel could fit easily in
a 4K instruction cache and leave room for other processes.  They measured
everything in cache misses, every commit had them thinking about cache
misses.

I'm definitely a unikernel guy but I had mad respect for QNX, Dan and
I would talk often about stuff, like how would this work in your world
and how would it work in my world.  The QNX core team was amazing.

Sadly, we lost Dan to brain cancer (I think) in 1998.
-- 
---
Larry McVoy            	     lm at mcvoy.com             http://www.mcvoy.com/lm 

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-07-21  1:50                           ` Larry McVoy
@ 2020-07-21  2:30                             ` Gregg Levine
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 89+ messages in thread
From: Gregg Levine @ 2020-07-21  2:30 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Larry McVoy; +Cc: tuhs

Hello!
Larry? I'm surprised. I've worked with QNX a few times. I also grok
that you're one who has mad respect for QNX. Because I'm one also.
It's an interesting OS,
-----
Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8@gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."

On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 9:53 PM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:
>
> On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 06:54:40AM -0600, Andrew Warkentin wrote:
> > On 7/20/20, Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:
> > > This isn't quite the same but Victor Yodaiken wrote a real time kernel
> > > that ran all of Linux as a user process.  Super cool idea and it worked
> > > great, he would demo it sampling the parallel port while Linux was running
> > > some X11 perf thing, tarring up /usr and untarring on nfs://server/tmp/usr
> > > and doing a ftp transfer.  Basically beating the crap out of Linux as
> > > hard as he could while running a real time sampler and it never missed.
> > >
> > > Clem should pay attention, in my opinion, this is how you do Unix and
> > > real time.  Because Unix is time sharing and throughput, that is the
> > > opposite of what real time is.  Wedging real time into Unix is a mistake.
> > >
> >
> > QNX manages to do realtime fairly decently while still being
> > Unix-like, although it's certainly not a conventional Unix. With a
> > multi-server OS with a properly designed microkernel, it is possible
> > for realtime threads to more or less ignore the fact that they're
> > running on a Unix-like OS (provided that they can access some kind of
> > IPC API that closely matches that of the kernel) since all the OS
> > services other than the microkernel are running beside them at
> > non-realtime priorities, and not underneath them as in a conventional
> > OS. It's kind of doing the same thing as running a Unix kernel as a
> > process under a realtime kernel, but the Unix environment is
> > implemented by servers and libraries instead of a monolithic kernel.
>
> QNX is awesome.
>
> I was friends with Dan Hildebrandt, he was one of the 3 people who were
> allowed to touch the microkernel code.  That kernel could fit easily in
> a 4K instruction cache and leave room for other processes.  They measured
> everything in cache misses, every commit had them thinking about cache
> misses.
>
> I'm definitely a unikernel guy but I had mad respect for QNX, Dan and
> I would talk often about stuff, like how would this work in your world
> and how would it work in my world.  The QNX core team was amazing.
>
> Sadly, we lost Dan to brain cancer (I think) in 1998.
> --
> ---
> Larry McVoy                  lm at mcvoy.com             http://www.mcvoy.com/lm

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-07-21  1:04                             ` Larry McVoy
@ 2020-07-22  3:13                               ` tytso
  2020-07-22  5:40                                 ` Bakul Shah
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread
From: tytso @ 2020-07-22  3:13 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Larry McVoy; +Cc: tuhs

On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 06:04:11PM -0700, Larry McVoy wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 05:11:48PM -0500, Ed Carp wrote:
> > On 7/20/20, Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:
> > 
> > > Clem should pay attention, in my opinion, this is how you do Unix and
> > > real time.  Because Unix is time sharing and throughput, that is the
> > > opposite of what real time is.  Wedging real time into Unix is a mistake.
> > 
> > Agreed.
> 
> So many people get this wrong, they want to make "real time" in Unix "good
> enough" and it messes with everything.  Victor's idea was awesome.
> 
> And you know what sucks?  I was on the Usenix review committee and I gave
> it 2 thumbs up but someone else, looking at you, Rob, said it was not 
> interesting because the real time kernel wasn't POSIX.  Even though the
> real time kernel had pipes, signals, and shared memory with Linux.
> 
> He was a bigger deal than me so it didn't get published.
> 
> I love the Rob in question, not Pike, but this was one of the most bone
> headed calls I've ever seen him make.  The world needed to see this.

Never fear, Victor's work got published in a number of Linux
conference, so it wasn't totally buried.

> Wind River bought it and buried it because it competed with their stuff
> that was nowhere near as good.

I can't get into the mind of Wind River. but having worked on a
commercial real-time extension to Linux, and having gotten a IBM
Systems Journal publication[1] out of it, I have a slightly different
perspective.

[1] https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/5386551

The issue is that there aren't that many good real-time programmers
Tavailable.  Furthermore, many real-time applications need to do a lot
more than data acquisition, so having access to POSIX API's in the
real time task is very attractive.  Sure, you can try to interchange
information between the real-time task and the POSIX task, but that's
a lot more complicated, and that's where the "not enough real-time
programmers" rears its head again.

This is even worse if you are working in a military application, since
small population of "can program real-time programmers" is further
reduced by "can get a security clearance".

Fortunately, with modern, fast CPU's, it's possible to do real-time
via brute force, and as it turns out, there are a very large number ofJ
real-time tasks which can deal with real-time latency that are tens of
milliseconds, at which point you even use real-time Java with a
real-time garbage collector running on a real-time Linux.  And that's
what Raytheon and the US Navy chose to use on their Zumwalt Class
destroyers, and that's how I and my team got the IBM Systems Journal
publication.   :-)

Sure, there will be some number of real-time task which needs
single-digit millisecond real-time guarantees --- in which case you
can write it in C using Real-time Linux.  And for those really cases
where you need latencies which are in the tens of microsecnds; then
yeah, at that point you might need specialized OS's.  But the cases
where you need fast, hard real-time is pretty rare compared to those
cases where real-time Java is sufficient.

Cheers,

					- Ted

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-18 20:22           ` Ed Carp
  2020-07-18 20:29             ` Warner Losh
@ 2020-07-22  3:41             ` Jason
  2020-07-22 16:15               ` Michael Parson
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread
From: Jason @ 2020-07-22  3:41 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ed Carp, Michael Kjörling; +Cc: tuhs


[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1210 bytes --]


  
  
  
    
    	
    	The emulator Shoebill can run A/UX
https://github.com/pruten/Shoebill

It’s pretty awesome.
    	

    	3.0 is the last version that is stable(ish).  Naturally the MacOS installer won’t run so a bunch of Unix legwork is required.
I’m not sure if this email will make the list but I’ll try....
Anyway the developer of Shoebill got snapped up by a certain fruit vendor so no updates...

As for A/UX it’s SYSV with the c and fortran compilers built in.  Apparently it was going to be Steve’s “Big Mac” project that was sidelined after he was pushed out.  Although there is so many crazy rumours of that window at the end of Apple and the start of NeXT.
    
  




On Sun, Jul 19, 2020 at 4:24 AM +0800, "Ed Carp" <erc@pobox.com> wrote:










Oh, boy, now you've got me started. I worked on A/UX at Apple back
around 1992. I'd love to find a copy of that!

On 7/17/20, Michael Kjörling  wrote:

> Which, by the way, and also meeting your "25 years old or older"
> criteria, looks like it would also include every version (with the
> possible exception of the last version or so; that was 1995-1996) of
> A/UX.






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* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was  Linux is on-topic]
  2020-07-20 12:32                       ` Derrik Walker v2.0
  2020-07-20 12:54                         ` Andrew Warkentin
@ 2020-07-22  3:44                         ` Jason
  2020-07-22 12:23                           ` Derrik Walker v2.0
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread
From: Jason @ 2020-07-22  3:44 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Derrik Walker v2.0, tuhs


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    	MachTen was interesting as heck to find.  I ran it on a LC recently and it was so slow.  I couldn’t work out how to build a linker, but I got a cross compiler (GCC) set your a sun-2 target and gas just worked fine letting me use my Xeon for cross compiling on NFS, and just linking on the Mac.
With only a 68020 it’s just too slow, and with no mmu it’s just too unstable.   But the cool factor is awesome.
Sadly my attempt at building gopher didn’t work so well.
    	

    	

    
  




On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 8:33 PM +0800, "Derrik Walker v2.0" <dwalker@doomd.net> wrote:










I used Mach10 and Later MkLinux as my UNIXy systems while in College before I got my first Sun Workstation in the mid ’90’s. 

Interestingly enough. MkLinux was actually ported to Old World PowerMacs by Apple and HP.  I think they also made.a version PCs too.

And Mach10 was interesting.  Different.  I also had Minix for the Mac, it worked much the same, as an app that sat onto of MacOS.  

- Derrik 

> On Jul 20, 2020, at 4:47 AM, arnold@skeeve.com wrote:
> 
> ISTR that A/UX was nothing special as a Unix.  Am I failing to remember?
> 
> I had had a DMD 5620 at my job, and after I moved to a different place
> and requested one, they graced me with a Macintosh.  It could sort of
> do multiple windows, but it was like having a piper cub after being
> used to a 747.
> 
> Other interesting bits for the Mac to maybe recover would be Mach Ten,
> which ran Mach on top of regular MacOS. (Talk about inverted pyramids...)
> There was also a Mach/Linux that I think ran on the Mac at some point.
> 
> Arnold
> 
> Michael Parson  wrote:
> 
>> On 2020-07-18 23:42, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote:
>>> On 7/18/20 9:46 PM, Wesley Parish wrote:
>>>> I'd still love to have that running.
>>> 
>>> I think I've seen articles about people running it running
>>> virtualization / emulation.
>> 
>> As far as I've been able to find, there is only one emulator that can 
>> run A/UX, shoebill[0].
>> 
>> I've got a Mac Quadra 950 with a Workgroup Server 95 card in it in the 
>> garage that I've been planning on someday trying to get A/UX running on, 
>> but haven't found enough round tuits.
>> 
>> Maybe if someone could rip the 680[34]0+MMU bits out of Win/FS-UAE 
>> (Amiga emulator) and patch them into Basilisk II (Mac 68K emulator), 
>> A/UX might work there.
>> 
>> -- 
>> Michael Parson
>> Pflugerville, TX
>> KF5LGQ
>> 
>> [0] https://github.com/emaculation/shoebill
> 






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* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-07-20 14:28                       ` Clem Cole
@ 2020-07-22  3:50                         ` Jason
  2020-07-22  4:26                           ` Henry Bent
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread
From: Jason @ 2020-07-22  3:50 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Clem Cole, Aharon Robbins; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society


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    	MachTen runs as a background accessory on MacOS.  Apparently it’ll turn on mmu protection if you have one.
But you are still able to run macOS software just fine.
A/UX boots macOS, then loads a loader app that takes over the machine and boots the kernel.  The emulator Shoebill “cheats” and reads the kernel from the UFS disk directly and jumps to that.
    	

    	Previous (the emulator) runs all the versions of nextstep for the 68k machines but also supports the true colour card, along with i860 emulation.
It’s pretty impressive what can be done with processors in the multiple GHz range with megabytes of l2/l3 cache.


    
  
From: TUHS <tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org> on behalf of Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com>
Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 10:30 PM
To: Aharon Robbins
Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society
Subject: Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic] 

On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 4:49 AM <arnold@skeeve.com> wrote:
Other interesting bits for the Mac to maybe recover would be Mach Ten,

which ran Mach on top of regular MacOS. (Talk about inverted pyramids...)
Interesting (not sure I would say 'cool').  I saw running it once next to NeXT Cube when I was visiting some friends in the Mach group at CMU at some point. I had always been under the impression it just used MacOS 7 to load it and then took over the system.  But I never ran 'under it' as it were. 
There was also a Mach/Linux that I think ran on the Mac at some point.I think I remember seeing that announced. 

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* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-07-22  3:50                         ` Jason
@ 2020-07-22  4:26                           ` Henry Bent
  2020-07-24  0:10                             ` Chris Hanson
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread
From: Henry Bent @ 2020-07-22  4:26 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Jason; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society


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On Tue, 21 Jul 2020 at 23:53, Jason <jsteve@superglobalmegacorp.com> wrote:

>
> A/UX boots macOS, then loads a loader app that takes over the machine and
> boots the kernel.  The emulator Shoebill “cheats” and reads the kernel from
> the UFS disk directly and jumps to that.
>
>
That was always really funny to me.  Your machine boots MacOS, presumably
because it was easier to let it deal with hardware initialization than to
rewrite it, then hands control over to A/UX which promptly runs MacOS as a
Unix process.  Which you can kill.

Oberlin College had a Workgroup Server 95, basically a repurposed Quadra
950, running as an AppleShare file server for a significant number of
users.  That was how Apple was marketing these things, and thinking about
it - use our Unix to serve your MacOS boxes!  But we have no real interest
in Unix, just buy more MacOS boxes!  See: Apple Network Server.

I remember my father mentioning talking to someone from Apple at a USENIX,
probably late '80s or very early '90s, and them admitting that A/UX was
essentially a glorified public beta.  That might have been in the A/UX 1.0
or 2.0 timeframe but it says a lot about the sorts of resources Apple was
dedicating to the idea.

-Henry

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* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-07-22  3:13                               ` tytso
@ 2020-07-22  5:40                                 ` Bakul Shah
  2020-07-22 14:16                                   ` Larry McVoy
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread
From: Bakul Shah @ 2020-07-22  5:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

On Jul 21, 2020, at 8:13 PM, tytso@mit.edu wrote:
> 
> The issue is that there aren't that many good real-time programmers
> Tavailable.  Furthermore, many real-time applications need to do a lot
> more than data acquisition, so having access to POSIX API's in the
> real time task is very attractive.  Sure, you can try to interchange
> information between the real-time task and the POSIX task, but that's
> a lot more complicated, and that's where the "not enough real-time
> programmers" rears its head again.
> 
> ...
> Sure, there will be some number of real-time task which needs
> single-digit millisecond real-time guarantees --- in which case you
> can write it in C using Real-time Linux.  And for those really cases
> where you need latencies which are in the tens of microsecnds; then
> yeah, at that point you might need specialized OS's.  But the cases
> where you need fast, hard real-time is pretty rare compared to those
> cases where real-time Java is sufficient.


The approach taken by Massalin in their Synthesis Kernel seemed quite
promising. By using runtime code synthesis they were able to run realtime
music synthesis at 25Khz sampling rate on a 20Mhz 68K machine. Too bad
these ideas didn't take off. I wanted to use similar ideas in lieu of
code like netgraph (in FreeBSD) or N layers of networking code but no
tools existed. Today, on a computing device your browser may freeze
for a few seconds due to garbage collection or whatever. 

Seems to me, a bigger issue than not-enough-real-time-real-programmers
is a lack of good real time programming abstractions and tools. No way
to specify or test a timing budget or required maximum latency. There
are things like CBQ (class based queueing) for managing traffci flows
but no such general purpose support for mapping code to hardware to
meet timing and latency requirements.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was  Linux is on-topic]
  2020-07-22  3:44                         ` Jason
@ 2020-07-22 12:23                           ` Derrik Walker v2.0
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 89+ messages in thread
From: Derrik Walker v2.0 @ 2020-07-22 12:23 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Jason; +Cc: tuhs


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It’s funny you mention how slow it can be.  On a decent Mac with enough ram, it was fine.  The later PowerPC native version, running on just about any new world Mac, was really fast. 

Having said that, running it via Mini vMac on my 2020 MacBook Air, it feels about 1 million times faster than on any physical Mac I ever ran it on. 

And Gopher …. There is a program I’ve not seen in a very long time. I remember in the early days of the Power Mac, Apple released this really cool 3D gopher client.  It ran pretty well on the 6100 I had at the time.

- Derrik  

> On Jul 21, 2020, at 11:44 PM, Jason <jsteve@superglobalmegacorp.com> wrote:
> 
> MachTen was interesting as heck to find.  I ran it on a LC recently and it was so slow.  I couldn’t work out how to build a linker, but I got a cross compiler (GCC) set your a sun-2 target and gas just worked fine letting me use my Xeon for cross compiling on NFS, and just linking on the Mac.
> 
> With only a 68020 it’s just too slow, and with no mmu it’s just too unstable.   But the cool factor is awesome.
> 
> Sadly my attempt at building gopher didn’t work so well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 8:33 PM +0800, "Derrik Walker v2.0" <dwalker@doomd.net <mailto:dwalker@doomd.net>> wrote:
> 
> I used Mach10 and Later MkLinux as my UNIXy systems while in College before I got my first Sun Workstation in the mid ’90’s. 
> 
> Interestingly enough. MkLinux was actually ported to Old World PowerMacs by Apple and HP.  I think they also made.a version PCs too.
> 
> And Mach10 was interesting.  Different.  I also had Minix for the Mac, it worked much the same, as an app that sat onto of MacOS.  
> 
> - Derrik 
> 
> > On Jul 20, 2020, at 4:47 AM, arnold@skeeve.com wrote:
> > 
> > ISTR that A/UX was nothing special as a Unix.  Am I failing to remember?
> > 
> > I had had a DMD 5620 at my job, and after I moved to a different place
> > and requested one, they graced me with a Macintosh.  It could sort of
> > do multiple windows, but it was like having a piper cub after being
> > used to a 747.
> > 
> > Other interesting bits for the Mac to maybe recover would be Mach Ten,
> > which ran Mach on top of regular MacOS. (Talk about inverted pyramids...)
> > There was also a Mach/Linux that I think ran on the Mac at some point.
> > 
> > Arnold
> > 
> > Michael Parson  wrote:
> > 
> >> On 2020-07-18 23:42, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote:
> >>> On 7/18/20 9:46 PM, Wesley Parish wrote:
> >>>> I'd still love to have that running.
> >>> 
> >>> I think I've seen articles about people running it running
> >>> virtualization / emulation.
> >> 
> >> As far as I've been able to find, there is only one emulator that can 
> >> run A/UX, shoebill[0].
> >> 
> >> I've got a Mac Quadra 950 with a Workgroup Server 95 card in it in the 
> >> garage that I've been planning on someday trying to get A/UX running on, 
> >> but haven't found enough round tuits.
> >> 
> >> Maybe if someone could rip the 680[34]0+MMU bits out of Win/FS-UAE 
> >> (Amiga emulator) and patch them into Basilisk II (Mac 68K emulator), 
> >> A/UX might work there.
> >> 
> >> -- 
> >> Michael Parson
> >> Pflugerville, TX
> >> KF5LGQ
> >> 
> >> [0] https://github.com/emaculation/shoebill
> > 


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* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-07-22  5:40                                 ` Bakul Shah
@ 2020-07-22 14:16                                   ` Larry McVoy
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 89+ messages in thread
From: Larry McVoy @ 2020-07-22 14:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Bakul Shah; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

On Tue, Jul 21, 2020 at 10:40:21PM -0700, Bakul Shah wrote:
> On Jul 21, 2020, at 8:13 PM, tytso@mit.edu wrote:
> > 
> > The issue is that there aren't that many good real-time programmers
> > Tavailable.  Furthermore, many real-time applications need to do a lot
> > more than data acquisition, so having access to POSIX API's in the
> > real time task is very attractive.  Sure, you can try to interchange
> > information between the real-time task and the POSIX task, but that's
> > a lot more complicated, and that's where the "not enough real-time
> > programmers" rears its head again.
> > 
> > ...
> > Sure, there will be some number of real-time task which needs
> > single-digit millisecond real-time guarantees --- in which case you
> > can write it in C using Real-time Linux.  And for those really cases
> > where you need latencies which are in the tens of microsecnds; then
> > yeah, at that point you might need specialized OS's.  But the cases
> > where you need fast, hard real-time is pretty rare compared to those
> > cases where real-time Java is sufficient.
> 
> 
> The approach taken by Massalin in their Synthesis Kernel seemed quite
> promising. 

One of the few CS PhD thesis worth reading.

http://www.scs.stanford.edu/nyu/04fa/sched/readings/synthesis.pdf

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-22  3:41             ` Jason
@ 2020-07-22 16:15               ` Michael Parson
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 89+ messages in thread
From: Michael Parson @ 2020-07-22 16:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On 2020-07-21 22:41, Jason wrote:
> The emulator Shoebill can run A/UX
> https://github.com/pruten/Shoebill
> 
> It’s pretty awesome.
> 
> 
>     	3.0 is the last version that is stable(ish).  Naturally the MacOS
> installer won’t run so a bunch of Unix legwork is required.
> I’m not sure if this email will make the list but I’ll try....
> Anyway the developer of Shoebill got snapped up by a certain fruit
> vendor so no updates...

Guess that explains why he's not touched it since 2014.  The 
'emaculation'
github account[0] seems to be where the primary dev work on it is being 
done
now, but seems to be slow going, the last commit was Sept 2019.

> As for A/UX it’s SYSV with the c and fortran compilers built in.
>  Apparently it was going to be Steve’s “Big Mac” project that was
> sidelined after he was pushed out.  Although there is so many crazy
> rumours of that window at the end of Apple and the start of NeXT.

-- 
Michael Parson
Pflugerville, TX
KF5LGQ

[0] https://github.com/emaculation/shoebill

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-07-20 19:49                             ` Al Kossow
@ 2020-07-24  0:01                               ` Chris Hanson
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 89+ messages in thread
From: Chris Hanson @ 2020-07-24  0:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Al Kossow; +Cc: tuhs

On Jul 20, 2020, at 12:49 PM, Al Kossow <aek@bitsavers.org> wrote:

> I also had one of the few copies of MacMach that ran on a IIfx.
> No one in Cupertino was very interested in Mach.

I really wish this had been preserved. MacMach from what I saw meeting the last of the people involved at CMU in 1993-4 was a lot like A/UX in having System 6 as a process under Mach with BSD either colocated or running as a single server.

I have a friend who still had one of CMU's distribution CD right up until a couple years ago, when he trashed a bunch of stuff to move to another continent. :( If anyone else has one, it'd be news to me. The closest I have is an image of the bootstrap floppy; you normally got MacMach on campus by booting from a floppy that would start up a minimal Mach+BSD+shell; you would boot it, configure TCP/IP, partition your disk, and then SUP the rest of the distribution.

  -- Chris


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-07-20 20:20                         ` Ed Carp
  2020-07-20 21:02                           ` John Cowan
@ 2020-07-24  0:02                           ` Chris Hanson
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 89+ messages in thread
From: Chris Hanson @ 2020-07-24  0:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ed Carp; +Cc: tuhs

On Jul 20, 2020, at 1:20 PM, Ed Carp <erc@pobox.com> wrote:
> 
> Except that it had a rudimentary option completion feature that was
> sort of cool. When you typed "ls", for example, it would pop up a
> window that would show you all the options that you could select for
> that command. That was new and different. Too bad it didn't stick
> around.


You had to invoke Commando, it didn't pop up automatically as that'd be annoying as all heck.

Commando was also an integral part of Macintosh Programmer's Workshop, and extremely useful there for figuring  out the various commands and options.

  -- Chris


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-07-20 21:02                           ` John Cowan
  2020-07-20 22:27                             ` Ed Carp
@ 2020-07-24  0:04                             ` Chris Hanson
  2020-07-31 23:02                             ` Dave Horsfall
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 89+ messages in thread
From: Chris Hanson @ 2020-07-24  0:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: John Cowan; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society


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On Jul 20, 2020, at 2:02 PM, John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org> wrote:
> 
> The window had checkboxes corresponding to the options and text fields corresponding to their values, if any.  I can't remember if it parsed the output of --help or equivalent, though.

It was all driven by data custom-created for each command, it wasn't done by parsing -h (no --help in those days) or man pages. That would've been some combination of research project and nightmare. (It also wasn't done the VMS way, by having a nice set of libraries for defining commands and their arguments and flags and how to parse them.)

> I also don't recall if such commands were supported in pipelines, though I see no reason why they should not have been.


At least in Macintosh Programmer's Workshop, what Commando produced for you was the command line invocation, not the actual running process. So you'd type a command, invoke Commando, and when you clicked OK the command line you were entering would be updated with what you'd selected in the dialog box.

  -- Chris


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* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-07-22  4:26                           ` Henry Bent
@ 2020-07-24  0:10                             ` Chris Hanson
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 89+ messages in thread
From: Chris Hanson @ 2020-07-24  0:10 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Henry Bent; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society


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On Jul 21, 2020, at 9:26 PM, Henry Bent <henry.r.bent@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> That was always really funny to me.  Your machine boots MacOS, presumably because it was easier to let it deal with hardware initialization than to rewrite it

This is actually because the Mac OS is already in the middle of booting, because big chunks of it were ROM-resident. The ROM didn't just exist as a bootstrap loader for any OS; it was a subset of the OS that just loaded more of itself, replaced parts of itself, etc.

This only ended with the adoption of Open Firmware by the "New World" PCI-based Power Macintosh series. Even there, the second-stage bootstrap invoked by Open Firmware to get Mac OS up and running was actually a file on disk named "Mac OS ROM."

  -- Chris


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-07-20 21:02                           ` John Cowan
  2020-07-20 22:27                             ` Ed Carp
  2020-07-24  0:04                             ` Chris Hanson
@ 2020-07-31 23:02                             ` Dave Horsfall
  2020-07-31 23:12                               ` Richard Salz
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread
From: Dave Horsfall @ 2020-07-31 23:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society


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On Mon, 20 Jul 2020, John Cowan wrote:

> I remember reading about something like that, though it's not connected 
> in my mind with A/UX.  What I do remember is that you had to type "Ls" 
> to pop up the options window: After all, most of the time you don't 
> *want* options for  "ls".  On a text terminal, the top half of the 
> screen became the options window; its scrolling content was restored 
> when the window was dismissed.

I'm glad that it was sort of optional, otherwise it would annoy the hell 
out of me.

SMIT was quite nice although; although it was a GUI (which I loathe), at 
least it displayed the command that was run as a result (which was just as 
well!) so you could type it yourself if you liked.

-- Dave

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-07-31 23:02                             ` Dave Horsfall
@ 2020-07-31 23:12                               ` Richard Salz
  2020-08-01  1:36                                 ` Larry McVoy
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread
From: Richard Salz @ 2020-07-31 23:12 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Dave Horsfall; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society


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> SMIT was quite nice


i have never seen those four words together like that before.

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-07-31 23:12                               ` Richard Salz
@ 2020-08-01  1:36                                 ` Larry McVoy
  2020-08-01 16:08                                   ` Nemo Nusquam
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread
From: Larry McVoy @ 2020-08-01  1:36 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Richard Salz; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 07:12:57PM -0400, Richard Salz wrote:
> > SMIT was quite nice
> 
> i have never seen those four words together like that before.

Me neither.  SMIT was HORRIBLE if you understood the files in /etc and
knew what to do with them.  It might be nice if you had no understanding
of how to admin a Unix system and here is this "nice" curses based way
to do admin.

To anyone remotely competent, and I don't mean edit sendmail.cf, I mean
you can edit inetd.conf, you can edit a crontab file, etc, SMIT was a
nightmare that made something that should be vi $FILE, done 20 seconds
later, a hellish journey through their menus.  It was AWFUL.

Ask me how I know.

--lm

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-08-01  1:36                                 ` Larry McVoy
@ 2020-08-01 16:08                                   ` Nemo Nusquam
  2020-08-01 17:01                                     ` Arthur Krewat
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread
From: Nemo Nusquam @ 2020-08-01 16:08 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On 07/31/20 21:36, Larry McVoy wrote (in part):
> Me neither. SMIT was HORRIBLE [...]

Hhmmm... I am reminded of the appendix "In defense of AIX" in Nemeth et 
alii.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-08-01 16:08                                   ` Nemo Nusquam
@ 2020-08-01 17:01                                     ` Arthur Krewat
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 89+ messages in thread
From: Arthur Krewat @ 2020-08-01 17:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs


On 8/1/2020 12:08 PM, Nemo Nusquam wrote:
> On 07/31/20 21:36, Larry McVoy wrote (in part):
>> Me neither. SMIT was HORRIBLE [...]
>
> Hhmmm... I am reminded of the appendix "In defense of AIX" in Nemeth 
> et alii.
>
SMIT had an IBM-ish-ness to it all it's own. I seem to remember it was 
pretty easy to get the commands it was running, and just use those next 
time around.

Nothing quite like having a customer's entire IT department outsourced 
to IBM, and having to go into SMIT and fix their cluster configs... 
Ah... good times.

ak

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks
  2020-07-21  4:15           ` tytso
@ 2020-07-21 17:49             ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 89+ messages in thread
From: Grant Taylor via TUHS @ 2020-07-21 17:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs


[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2554 bytes --]

On 7/20/20 10:15 PM, tytso@mit.edu wrote:
> Sorry for not responding on this thread earlier; I've been pretty 
> swamped lately.

Better late than never.

I've found that truly interesting threads on TUHS, COFF, cctalk, et al. 
tend to go on for weeks.

> Xiafs was introduced at about the same time of ext2; Wikipedia 
> states that
> 
>     "Initially, Xiafs was more stable than ext2, but being a fairly
>     minimalistic modification of the MINIX file system, it was not very
>     well suited for future extension."
> 
> The first part wasn't quite accurate.  It turns out that xiafs had 
> the same bug as ext2, but ext2 had the necessary sanity checking so 
> that it actually issued a warning when the bug was triggered, where 
> xiafs just silently corrupted the file system.

Now I'm curious what said bug was.

> The real issue was that xiafs was mostly a one-person show (namely 
> Frank Xia) and he suffered blowback when he tried to rename xiafs 
> to linuxfs, which was interpreted by many as a marketing effort --- 
> about as tone-deaf as Stallman trying to jawbone people to rename 
> "Linux" to "LiGNUx" ten years later.

Hum.  :-/

To be perfectly honest, I hadn't heard of Xia-FS until I started messing 
with H.J. Lu's bootable root disk.  I started messing with Linux in late 
'90s.  By then, everything was ext2.

> And xiafs was technically worse compared to ext2, and ext2 had a larger 
> number of developers.  So xiafs never really stood much of a chance.

That makes sense, retrospectively.

> Also, by that point, very few people were actually using HJ's boot/root 
> disks.  Most developers had moved on to the MCC distribution by that 
> time, since it was more comprehensive, and it was easier to bootstrap 
> a working development system.

Ya.  It seems as if H.J. Lu's disk had largely fallen to the annals of 
history by '95.  MCC and SLS had come and gone, being replaced with 
Slackware and Debian by the time that I started messing with Linux.

> So to be honest, I had never noticed that HJ was trying to use xiafs 
> in his boot/root disks.

I can't guarantee that H.J. Lu used xiafs for his bootable root disk.  I 
want to say that he was using the minux file system.  It's the base disk 
images that seem to be using xiafs.

I've found a treasure trove of old Linux disk images on OldLinux [1] and 
am messing with them in Bochs.  (Bochs is working out better than 
VirtualBox.)

[1] http://www.oldlinux.org/



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks
  2020-07-17 23:50         ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
@ 2020-07-21  4:15           ` tytso
  2020-07-21 17:49             ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread
From: tytso @ 2020-07-21  4:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Grant Taylor; +Cc: tuhs

Sorry for not responding on this thread earlier; I've been pretty
swamped lately.

Xiafs was introduced at about the same time of ext2; Wikipedia states that

   "Initially, Xiafs was more stable than ext2, but being a fairly
   minimalistic modification of the MINIX file system, it was not very
   well suited for future extension."

The first part wasn't quite accurate.  It turns out that xiafs had the
same bug as ext2, but ext2 had the necessary sanity checking so that
it actually issued a warning when the bug was triggered, where xiafs
just silently corrupted the file system.

The real issue was that xiafs was mostly a one-person show (namely
Frank Xia) and he suffered blowback when he tried to rename xiafs to
linuxfs, which was interpreted by many as a marketing effort --- about
as tone-deaf as Stallman trying to jawbone people to rename "Linux" to
"LiGNUx" ten years later.

And xiafs was technically worse compared to ext2, and ext2 had a
larger number of developers.  So xiafs never really stood much of a
chance.

Also, by that point, very few people were actually using HJ's
boot/root disks.  Most developers had moved on to the MCC distribution
by that time, since it was more comprehensive, and it was easier to
bootstrap a working development system.

So to be honest, I had never noticed that HJ was trying to use xiafs
in his boot/root disks.

Cheers,

					- Ted

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks
  2020-07-17  5:18       ` Random832
  2020-07-17 13:12         ` Ron Pool
@ 2020-07-17 23:50         ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2020-07-21  4:15           ` tytso
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread
From: Grant Taylor via TUHS @ 2020-07-17 23:50 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs


[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1018 bytes --]

On 7/16/20 11:18 PM, Random832 wrote:
> The CD collection was called InfoMagic, and when he posted his question 
> on Twitter I was able to find a mirror here:
> 
> http://grumbeer.dyndns.org/ftp/servers/sunsite/1994-06-28/GCC/basedisk/

Unfortunately, neither rootdisk that I've found, 0.98.pl5-31 nor 
0.99.pl14, will access any of the basedisks that I've found.

They will mount, df shows that there is data on them.  But ls says that 
there's no "." file or I get an "XIA-FS: bad directory entry (dir.c 91)" 
error message.

> As for the internet archive, the CD *might* be this one 
> https://archive.org/details/cdrom-ldr-0694, these entries don't seem 
> to be very well tagged or have listings of contents.

I get the same type of errors from this disk too.

I downloaded all the LDR that I could find on I.A. and looked through 
them.  Only '94-06 has basedisk images on them.

I have yet to be able to access any data on any basedisk sets.  :-/



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks
  2020-07-17 17:26               ` Warner Losh
  2020-07-17 17:50                 ` Adam Thornton
  2020-07-17 20:16                 ` Petr Titěra
@ 2020-07-17 21:48                 ` A. P. Garcia
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 89+ messages in thread
From: A. P. Garcia @ 2020-07-17 21:48 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Warner Losh; +Cc: TUHS main list, Grant Taylor


[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1044 bytes --]

On Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 1:27 PM Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:

>
> I would love to find a forum for Linux history like TUHS is for Unix
>> history.
>>
>
> I would too... The early days were fun to live through, but much of what I
> recall from the time isn't mentioned much, if at all, anymore.
>
> Warner
>

Those days were fun. I just went down memory lane with the book "Rebel
Code" by Glyn Moody. Good stuff.

How different those days were, for me at least. I was just a Linux
advocate, enthusiast, and hobbyist until 2000 or so, when I started work as
a sysadmin. Red Hat Enterprise Linux was not yet a thing. It was just Red
Hat, i.e. just another distro, just one voice of many that were shaping the
future of the OS. Nowadays, in the corporate world at least, Red Hat IS
Linux, or rather, Linux is whatever Red Hat says it is.

That isn't entirely a bad thing. Gentoo is great for my personal use, in
the same way that FreeBSD is. But if I have to support a few hundred
servers, I'd rather do it with vSphere, RHEL, and Ansible.

>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks
  2020-07-17  5:30 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
@ 2020-07-17 20:37   ` Petr Titěra
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 89+ messages in thread
From: Petr Titěra @ 2020-07-17 20:37 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Grant Taylor, tuhs



Dne 17. 7. 2020 v 7:30 Grant Taylor via TUHS napsal(a):
> On 7/15/20 10:17 PM, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote:
>> Does anyone happen to have copies of H.J. Lu's Bootable Root and the
>> associated Linux Base System disk images from the early '90s?
> 
> I manged to find something after sending the email last night.  But I'm
> having trouble accessing them.  As such, I'm still interested to know if
> other people have a copy.
> 
> I say trouble accessing them because the HJ 0.99pl7 Bootable Root disk
> can't mount the XiaFS base disk images.  Further, when I try to mount
> them from Slackware 3.1 ('96) after loading the XiaFS module, things
> don't work correctly.  df shows that there is different amounts of
> content on the three base disk images.  But doing an ls on the mount
> point returns an error.  (I don't have the error handy.)

There were some inconsistencies with XiaFS at that time. See this note
from release notes:

  NOTE: If you are using this rootdisk for the kernel 0.99 pl7 and
xiafs. you should run "xfsck -a /dev/xxxxx" on your xiafs partitions
after booting this rootdisk from the floppy drive first. After you have
done that, YOU HAVE TO USE THE KERNEL ON THIS DISK TO ACCESS YOUR XIAFS
PARTITIONS. Please read LILO docs for how to do it. You have to use the
kernel built with Frank Xia's patch for 0.99 pl 7, which is appended
below. THIS PATCH IS ONLY NEEDED BY THE KERNEL 0.99 pl 7. DON'T USE IT
ON ANY OTHER KERNELS.

Petr


> > Someone responded to me on Twitter this morning with a link to some
> other files, but I've not yet had an opportunity to try them.
> 
> 
> 

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks
  2020-07-17 17:26               ` Warner Losh
  2020-07-17 17:50                 ` Adam Thornton
@ 2020-07-17 20:16                 ` Petr Titěra
  2020-07-17 21:48                 ` A. P. Garcia
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 89+ messages in thread
From: Petr Titěra @ 2020-07-17 20:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Warner Losh, Grant Taylor; +Cc: TUHS main list



Dne 17. 7. 2020 v 19:26 Warner Losh napsal(a):
> 
> 
> On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 9:13 AM Grant Taylor via TUHS
> <tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org <mailto:tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>> wrote:
> 
>     On 7/17/20 12:04 AM, Petr Titěra wrote:
>     > No, I consider my effort to reconstruct Linux libc release history
>     > as off topic communication.
> 
>     Interesting.  Where can I learn more about your work efforts?
> 
> 
> I'd like to know as well...
>  

I will post nearly same list I did send Grant off-list.


This is what I have now (I can provide full listing):

libc-5.4 - quite good coverage some versions only as a patch against
previous version but I was able to find most original distribution
source and binary archives

libc-5.3 - most versions only as patch against older versions (this was
short live series)

libc-5.2 - not much of it was preserved on the net, again short lived
series mostly patches but with wide gaps

libc-5.1 - one of the shortest series (only 4 releases) again I have
mostly patches

libc-5.0 - first used ELF series. I have mostly diffs of it. with only
one full release

libc-4.8 - transitional release to ELF. there was only one version of it
and I think it was never widely used in production. (you must be careful
here as there is another libc4.8 series which is completely different)

libc-4.7 - this was last official a.out series I've got most releases of it

In addition to above I was even able to find CVS repository containing
all changes from 4.6.27 to 5.4.46. Previous repository was unfortunately
destroyed when computer of H.J.Lu crashed on April 6th 1994.

Before version 4.7 thing get worse. These versions are oldest and they
were not archived. Sometimes you can find bits of binaries of those
versions in old Linux distributions but mostly on binary form. Another
problem is that CDs started to be mass published only around 1993 and
you will not find a lot of mirrors so old.

libc-4.6 - I have only few full releases and just some bits like diffs
of includes or release notes

libc-4.5 - only some bits and patches. You can easily find CVS
repository with commits of releases 4.5.7-4.5.19 (not development
repository, just release by release pushed into CVS) as a side note same
author created CVS repository of linux versions from  LINUX_0_99_14 to
LINUX_0_99_15I but these releases are quite easy to find

libc-4.4 - again not much one full release and some bits

libc-4.3 - one full release and some bits

libc-4.2 - only some fixes from mailing lists

libc-4.1 - it seem that I have source of it but nothing more

Versions before 4.1 were released together with compiler

libc-2.2 - only one release, nothing more

libc-1.4 - I have some sources claiming to be package for gcc 1.4 from
1992 but I do not know its exact source (it contains copyright of DJ
Delorie and I do not know if it was distributed with that copyright at
that time). It seems to me that I found GCC binary for this library too
but I was not able to test it.

libc-0.12 - I do not know much about this version.

I did not try to collect binutils for those libraries (I was mostly
after sources) but as I tend to mirror whole tree I think I will get a
lot of those too.

Petr Titera


> 
>     > If someone think otherwise I would be wery glad.
> 
>     I'm decidedly not an authority on the matter.  But I think there are
>     some in the global Unix community that shun Linux, and things
>     (directly)
>     related to it because it's not a Unix descended from AT&T.  Hence my
>     comment in my original post.
> 
>     I would love to find a forum for Linux history like TUHS is for Unix
>     history.
> 
> 
> I would too... The early days were fun to live through, but much of what
> I recall from the time isn't mentioned much, if at all, anymore.
> 
> Warner

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks
  2020-07-17 15:12             ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2020-07-17 17:19               ` Larry McVoy
  2020-07-17 17:26               ` Warner Losh
@ 2020-07-17 19:46               ` Harald Arnesen
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 89+ messages in thread
From: Harald Arnesen @ 2020-07-17 19:46 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

Grant Taylor via TUHS [17.07.2020 17:12]:

> I'm decidedly not an authority on the matter.  But I think there are 
> some in the global Unix community that shun Linux, and things (directly) 
> related to it because it's not a Unix descended from AT&T.  Hence my 
> comment in my original post.

Dennis Richie seemed to think Linux was a worthy descendant:
<http://www.linuxfocus.org/English/July1999/article79.html>
-- 
Hilsen Harald

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks
  2020-07-16  4:17 [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2020-07-17  1:40 ` John Gilmore
  2020-07-17  5:30 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
@ 2020-07-17 18:16 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 89+ messages in thread
From: Grant Taylor via TUHS @ 2020-07-17 18:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs


[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 573 bytes --]

At the risk of the probably deserved flames for replying to my own 
original post....

On 7/15/20 10:17 PM, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote:
> Is it okay for me to ask a question about Linux that's from '91~'92?

It sounds like Linux, as a history / development there of, is generally 
on topic.  Obviously pending comments from Warren.

But I do think that we probably want to avoid turning this into a 
general Linux support forum.  There are many of those already and we 
don't need yet another one.

Just my 2¢ worth.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks
  2020-07-17 17:26               ` Warner Losh
@ 2020-07-17 17:50                 ` Adam Thornton
  2020-07-17 20:16                 ` Petr Titěra
  2020-07-17 21:48                 ` A. P. Garcia
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 89+ messages in thread
From: Adam Thornton @ 2020-07-17 17:50 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: TUHS main list; +Cc: Grant Taylor

> 
> I would too... The early days were fun to live through, but much of what I recall from the time isn't mentioned much, if at all, anymore.
> 

I count Linux as a Unix.  It certainly ACTS a lot more like one (and did from day one) than, say, early AIX.

Early Linux was kind of where I came in, so I feel like I actually might have a bit to contribute if we’re talking about it here.

Adam

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks
  2020-07-17 15:12             ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2020-07-17 17:19               ` Larry McVoy
@ 2020-07-17 17:26               ` Warner Losh
  2020-07-17 17:50                 ` Adam Thornton
                                   ` (2 more replies)
  2020-07-17 19:46               ` Harald Arnesen
  2 siblings, 3 replies; 89+ messages in thread
From: Warner Losh @ 2020-07-17 17:26 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Grant Taylor; +Cc: TUHS main list


[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 894 bytes --]

On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 9:13 AM Grant Taylor via TUHS <tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>
wrote:

> On 7/17/20 12:04 AM, Petr Titěra wrote:
> > No, I consider my effort to reconstruct Linux libc release history
> > as off topic communication.
>
> Interesting.  Where can I learn more about your work efforts?
>

I'd like to know as well...


> > If someone think otherwise I would be wery glad.
>
> I'm decidedly not an authority on the matter.  But I think there are
> some in the global Unix community that shun Linux, and things (directly)
> related to it because it's not a Unix descended from AT&T.  Hence my
> comment in my original post.
>
> I would love to find a forum for Linux history like TUHS is for Unix
> history.
>

I would too... The early days were fun to live through, but much of what I
recall from the time isn't mentioned much, if at all, anymore.

Warner

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks
  2020-07-17 15:12             ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
@ 2020-07-17 17:19               ` Larry McVoy
  2020-07-17 17:26               ` Warner Losh
  2020-07-17 19:46               ` Harald Arnesen
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 89+ messages in thread
From: Larry McVoy @ 2020-07-17 17:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Grant Taylor; +Cc: tuhs

On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 09:12:23AM -0600, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote:
> On 7/17/20 12:04 AM, Petr Tit?ra wrote:
> >No, I consider my effort to reconstruct Linux libc release history as off
> >topic communication.
> 
> Interesting.  Where can I learn more about your work efforts?
> 
> >If someone think otherwise I would be wery glad.
> 
> I'm decidedly not an authority on the matter.  But I think there are some in
> the global Unix community that shun Linux, and things (directly) related to
> it because it's not a Unix descended from AT&T.  Hence my comment in my
> original post.
> 
> I would love to find a forum for Linux history like TUHS is for Unix
> history.

Me too.  For the record, I'm fine with Linux on this list but it is
probably up to Warren to decide.

I came from BSD roots, SunOS, but I've been using Linux since maybe 
1994 or 95 as my daily desktop/laptop (and yes, it was pretty sketchy
back then, I've been playing with Linux since before it had TCP/IP,
it's gotten a lot better).

I think there are some legit complaints about Linux but a lot of those
could be said about BSD.  Bell Labs Unix was very terse, they took less
is more as far as you can.  Linux was far more pragmatic, the Linux
/proc is nothing like AT&T /proc, Linux is all strings and has tons
of info and knobs that /proc didn't have.  AT&T /proc is about processes
and Linux /proc is a generic bunghole where you can see everything and
control everything.  It's a bit much but in general, I like the Linux
/proc, it's pleasant being able to poke around without having the write
a C program to grovel through the binary data structures.

That said, /proc came from the time of 100mhz processors, the idea that
you were going to parse all those strings probably gave people heartburn
then.  Now it is fine.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks
  2020-07-17  6:04           ` Petr Titěra
@ 2020-07-17 15:12             ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2020-07-17 17:19               ` Larry McVoy
                                 ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 89+ messages in thread
From: Grant Taylor via TUHS @ 2020-07-17 15:12 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs


[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 634 bytes --]

On 7/17/20 12:04 AM, Petr Titěra wrote:
> No, I consider my effort to reconstruct Linux libc release history 
> as off topic communication.

Interesting.  Where can I learn more about your work efforts?

> If someone think otherwise I would be wery glad.

I'm decidedly not an authority on the matter.  But I think there are 
some in the global Unix community that shun Linux, and things (directly) 
related to it because it's not a Unix descended from AT&T.  Hence my 
comment in my original post.

I would love to find a forum for Linux history like TUHS is for Unix 
history.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks
  2020-07-17  5:18       ` Random832
@ 2020-07-17 13:12         ` Ron Pool
  2020-07-17 23:50         ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 89+ messages in thread
From: Ron Pool @ 2020-07-17 13:12 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Random832, TUHS

On 7/17/20, 1:28 AM, "TUHS on behalf of Random832" <tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org on behalf of random832@fastmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 16, 2020, at 23:35, Larry McVoy wrote:
> > I looked, don't have it.  There was a red 4 CD set, I want to say it
> > was ImageMagick but that's the graphics program.  It was a 4 cd set
> > of at least one Linux distro and a boat load of open source stuff.
>
> The CD collection was called InfoMagic, and when he posted his question on Twitter I was able to find a mirror here:
>
> http://grumbeer.dyndns.org/ftp/servers/sunsite/1994-06-28/GCC/basedisk/
>
> As for the internet archive, the CD *might* be this one https://archive.org/details/cdrom-ldr-0694, these entries don't seem to be very well tagged or have listings of contents.

FYI, you can get listings of contents of most ISOs, DMGs, ZIPs, etc that are on archive.org.  If you visit an archive.org page like https://archive.org/details/cdrom-ldr-0694, then in the DOWNLOAD OPTIONS section you can click SHOW ALL and that will display a list of all files (including ISOs) that archive.org has squirrelled away, like this:

  Name                                Last modified      Size
  Go to parent directory
  README                              18-Dec-2012 01:48    8.8K
  cdrom-ldr-0694_archive.torrent      01-Sep-2016 14:02   26.8K
  cdrom-ldr-0694_files.xml            21-Jun-2020 06:17    1.6K
  cdrom-ldr-0694_meta.xml             21-Jun-2020 06:17    2.4K
  ldr_0694_disc1.iso (View Contents)  18-Dec-2012 01:43  637.4M
  ldr_0694_disc2.iso (View Contents)  18-Dec-2012 01:44  646.5M
                          
Click on one of the (View Contents) links to view a listing of all files in that archive.  Works for at least .iso, .DMG, .zip, .tar.
                  
-- Ron      



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks
  2020-07-17  5:41         ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
@ 2020-07-17  6:04           ` Petr Titěra
  2020-07-17 15:12             ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread
From: Petr Titěra @ 2020-07-17  6:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Grant Taylor, tuhs



Dne 17. 7. 2020 v 7:41 Grant Taylor via TUHS napsal(a):
> On 7/16/20 11:23 PM, Petr Titěra wrote:
>> But this is off topic for this list.
> 
> Why is this off topic for this list?
> 
> Is it because I'm trying to find software?  Or is it because it's a
> question about Linux?

No, I consider my effort to reconstruct Linux libc release history as
off topic communication. If someone think otherwise I would be wery glad.

Petr Titera

> > I'd like to point out that I'm asking about software that is decidedly
> in the broad category of unix and unix like operating systems.  Note the
> lower case u to avoid any licensing issues.  Further, I'm asking about a
> unix (if you will) from 1991, which actually predates 2.11BSD from 1992.
>  I suspect that Warner's discussions about 2.11BSD are decidedly on topic.
> 
> So, I ask, why is this off topic for this list?
> 
> 
> 

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks
  2020-07-17  5:23       ` Petr Titěra
@ 2020-07-17  5:41         ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2020-07-17  6:04           ` Petr Titěra
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread
From: Grant Taylor via TUHS @ 2020-07-17  5:41 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs


[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 684 bytes --]

On 7/16/20 11:23 PM, Petr Titěra wrote:
> But this is off topic for this list.

Why is this off topic for this list?

Is it because I'm trying to find software?  Or is it because it's a 
question about Linux?

I'd like to point out that I'm asking about software that is decidedly 
in the broad category of unix and unix like operating systems.  Note the 
lower case u to avoid any licensing issues.  Further, I'm asking about a 
unix (if you will) from 1991, which actually predates 2.11BSD from 1992. 
  I suspect that Warner's discussions about 2.11BSD are decidedly on topic.

So, I ask, why is this off topic for this list?



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks
  2020-07-16  4:17 [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2020-07-17  1:40 ` John Gilmore
@ 2020-07-17  5:30 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2020-07-17 20:37   ` Petr Titěra
  2020-07-17 18:16 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread
From: Grant Taylor via TUHS @ 2020-07-17  5:30 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs


[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 958 bytes --]

On 7/15/20 10:17 PM, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote:
> Does anyone happen to have copies of H.J. Lu's Bootable Root and the 
> associated Linux Base System disk images from the early '90s?

I manged to find something after sending the email last night.  But I'm 
having trouble accessing them.  As such, I'm still interested to know if 
other people have a copy.

I say trouble accessing them because the HJ 0.99pl7 Bootable Root disk 
can't mount the XiaFS base disk images.  Further, when I try to mount 
them from Slackware 3.1 ('96) after loading the XiaFS module, things 
don't work correctly.  df shows that there is different amounts of 
content on the three base disk images.  But doing an ls on the mount 
point returns an error.  (I don't have the error handy.)

Someone responded to me on Twitter this morning with a link to some 
other files, but I've not yet had an opportunity to try them.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks
  2020-07-17  3:35     ` Larry McVoy
  2020-07-17  5:18       ` Random832
  2020-07-17  5:23       ` Petr Titěra
@ 2020-07-17  5:24       ` Adam Thornton
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 89+ messages in thread
From: Adam Thornton @ 2020-07-17  5:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Larry McVoy; +Cc: The Unix Heritage Society, Grant Taylor


[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2229 bytes --]

I usually think of him and Theodore Ts'o in the same context (which is to
say, tsx-11/MIT), so perhaps he would know?  LinkedIn claims he's at Intel
somewhere in the Bay area, but his employment there dates (LinkedIn claims)
to 2003...so, possible, or maybe he just dropped off the radar sometime
between then and now.

Adam

On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 8:36 PM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:

> I looked, don't have it.  There was a red 4 CD set, I want to say it
> was ImageMagick but that's the graphics program.  It was a 4 cd set
> of at least one Linux distro and a boat load of open source stuff.
>
> It predated redhat so it was huge back in the day, way better to
> buy that than spend a bizillion days on ftp over a modem.
>
> H.J. Lu's stuff was on it.
>
> Does anyone know where he is?  I can go look if that helps.
>
> On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 06:59:14PM -0700, Larry McVoy wrote:
> > I have to go look but I think I might have this on CD.  I used to have
> > a drawer full of install cds that went back to the 1990's.  If I don't
> > follow up, they are gone.
> >
> > On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 06:40:45PM -0700, John Gilmore wrote:
> > > > The files used to be on tsx-11.mit.edu:/pub/linux/GCC in rootdisk
> and
> > > > basedisk subdirectories.
> > >
> > > There's a copy of the tsx-11 archives in the Internet Archive here,
> > > along with 8 other archival CDs from Pacific HiTech, but it doesn't
> > > seem to include the directories you want:
> > >
> > >   https://archive.org/details/OfficialRedHatCommercialLiNUXV3.0.3
> > >
> > > The same item also has a copy of the old Sunsite archive on 4 CD
> images.
> > > Was there a mirror of H.J. Lu's early stuff in sunsite?
> > >
> > > Searching for "tsx-11" in the search box at the Internet Archive
> > > turns up half a dozen (typically CDROM .ISO) images of various copies
> > > of the tsx-11 archives.
> > >
> > > Unfortunately, the Internet Archive never directly crawled
> tsx-11.mit.edu,
> > > seemingly because it was never accessible via http?
> > >
> > >     John
> > >
> >
> > --
> > ---
> > Larry McVoy                        lm at mcvoy.com
> http://www.mcvoy.com/lm
>
> --
> ---
> Larry McVoy                  lm at mcvoy.com
> http://www.mcvoy.com/lm
>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks
  2020-07-17  3:35     ` Larry McVoy
  2020-07-17  5:18       ` Random832
@ 2020-07-17  5:23       ` Petr Titěra
  2020-07-17  5:41         ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2020-07-17  5:24       ` Adam Thornton
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread
From: Petr Titěra @ 2020-07-17  5:23 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Larry McVoy, John Gilmore; +Cc: The Unix Heritage Society, Grant Taylor

It was InfoMagic and that set is Linux Developer Resources. You can find
some releases of it on archive.org. I hunt it and similar sets to try to
reconstruct Linux libc release history.

But this is off topic for this list.

Petr Titera

Dne 17. 7. 2020 v 5:35 Larry McVoy napsal(a):
> I looked, don't have it.  There was a red 4 CD set, I want to say it
> was ImageMagick but that's the graphics program.  It was a 4 cd set
> of at least one Linux distro and a boat load of open source stuff.
> 
> It predated redhat so it was huge back in the day, way better to
> buy that than spend a bizillion days on ftp over a modem.
> 
> H.J. Lu's stuff was on it.  
> 
> Does anyone know where he is?  I can go look if that helps.
> 
> On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 06:59:14PM -0700, Larry McVoy wrote:
>> I have to go look but I think I might have this on CD.  I used to have
>> a drawer full of install cds that went back to the 1990's.  If I don't
>> follow up, they are gone.
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 06:40:45PM -0700, John Gilmore wrote:
>>>> The files used to be on tsx-11.mit.edu:/pub/linux/GCC in rootdisk and
>>>> basedisk subdirectories.
>>>
>>> There's a copy of the tsx-11 archives in the Internet Archive here,
>>> along with 8 other archival CDs from Pacific HiTech, but it doesn't
>>> seem to include the directories you want:
>>>
>>>   https://archive.org/details/OfficialRedHatCommercialLiNUXV3.0.3
>>>
>>> The same item also has a copy of the old Sunsite archive on 4 CD images.
>>> Was there a mirror of H.J. Lu's early stuff in sunsite?
>>>
>>> Searching for "tsx-11" in the search box at the Internet Archive
>>> turns up half a dozen (typically CDROM .ISO) images of various copies
>>> of the tsx-11 archives.
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, the Internet Archive never directly crawled tsx-11.mit.edu,
>>> seemingly because it was never accessible via http?
>>>
>>> 	John
>>> 	
>>
>> -- 
>> ---
>> Larry McVoy            	     lm at mcvoy.com             http://www.mcvoy.com/lm 
> 

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks
  2020-07-17  3:35     ` Larry McVoy
@ 2020-07-17  5:18       ` Random832
  2020-07-17 13:12         ` Ron Pool
  2020-07-17 23:50         ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2020-07-17  5:23       ` Petr Titěra
  2020-07-17  5:24       ` Adam Thornton
  2 siblings, 2 replies; 89+ messages in thread
From: Random832 @ 2020-07-17  5:18 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: TUHS

On Thu, Jul 16, 2020, at 23:35, Larry McVoy wrote:
> I looked, don't have it.  There was a red 4 CD set, I want to say it
> was ImageMagick but that's the graphics program.  It was a 4 cd set
> of at least one Linux distro and a boat load of open source stuff.

The CD collection was called InfoMagic, and when he posted his question on Twitter I was able to find a mirror here:

http://grumbeer.dyndns.org/ftp/servers/sunsite/1994-06-28/GCC/basedisk/

As for the internet archive, the CD *might* be this one https://archive.org/details/cdrom-ldr-0694, these entries don't seem to be very well tagged or have listings of contents.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks
  2020-07-17  1:59   ` Larry McVoy
@ 2020-07-17  3:35     ` Larry McVoy
  2020-07-17  5:18       ` Random832
                         ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 89+ messages in thread
From: Larry McVoy @ 2020-07-17  3:35 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: John Gilmore; +Cc: The Unix Heritage Society, Grant Taylor

I looked, don't have it.  There was a red 4 CD set, I want to say it
was ImageMagick but that's the graphics program.  It was a 4 cd set
of at least one Linux distro and a boat load of open source stuff.

It predated redhat so it was huge back in the day, way better to
buy that than spend a bizillion days on ftp over a modem.

H.J. Lu's stuff was on it.  

Does anyone know where he is?  I can go look if that helps.

On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 06:59:14PM -0700, Larry McVoy wrote:
> I have to go look but I think I might have this on CD.  I used to have
> a drawer full of install cds that went back to the 1990's.  If I don't
> follow up, they are gone.
> 
> On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 06:40:45PM -0700, John Gilmore wrote:
> > > The files used to be on tsx-11.mit.edu:/pub/linux/GCC in rootdisk and
> > > basedisk subdirectories.
> > 
> > There's a copy of the tsx-11 archives in the Internet Archive here,
> > along with 8 other archival CDs from Pacific HiTech, but it doesn't
> > seem to include the directories you want:
> > 
> >   https://archive.org/details/OfficialRedHatCommercialLiNUXV3.0.3
> > 
> > The same item also has a copy of the old Sunsite archive on 4 CD images.
> > Was there a mirror of H.J. Lu's early stuff in sunsite?
> > 
> > Searching for "tsx-11" in the search box at the Internet Archive
> > turns up half a dozen (typically CDROM .ISO) images of various copies
> > of the tsx-11 archives.
> > 
> > Unfortunately, the Internet Archive never directly crawled tsx-11.mit.edu,
> > seemingly because it was never accessible via http?
> > 
> > 	John
> > 	
> 
> -- 
> ---
> Larry McVoy            	     lm at mcvoy.com             http://www.mcvoy.com/lm 

-- 
---
Larry McVoy            	     lm at mcvoy.com             http://www.mcvoy.com/lm 

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks
  2020-07-17  1:40 ` John Gilmore
@ 2020-07-17  1:59   ` Larry McVoy
  2020-07-17  3:35     ` Larry McVoy
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread
From: Larry McVoy @ 2020-07-17  1:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: John Gilmore; +Cc: The Unix Heritage Society, Grant Taylor

I have to go look but I think I might have this on CD.  I used to have
a drawer full of install cds that went back to the 1990's.  If I don't
follow up, they are gone.

On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 06:40:45PM -0700, John Gilmore wrote:
> > The files used to be on tsx-11.mit.edu:/pub/linux/GCC in rootdisk and
> > basedisk subdirectories.
> 
> There's a copy of the tsx-11 archives in the Internet Archive here,
> along with 8 other archival CDs from Pacific HiTech, but it doesn't
> seem to include the directories you want:
> 
>   https://archive.org/details/OfficialRedHatCommercialLiNUXV3.0.3
> 
> The same item also has a copy of the old Sunsite archive on 4 CD images.
> Was there a mirror of H.J. Lu's early stuff in sunsite?
> 
> Searching for "tsx-11" in the search box at the Internet Archive
> turns up half a dozen (typically CDROM .ISO) images of various copies
> of the tsx-11 archives.
> 
> Unfortunately, the Internet Archive never directly crawled tsx-11.mit.edu,
> seemingly because it was never accessible via http?
> 
> 	John
> 	

-- 
---
Larry McVoy            	     lm at mcvoy.com             http://www.mcvoy.com/lm 

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks
  2020-07-16  4:17 [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks Grant Taylor via TUHS
@ 2020-07-17  1:40 ` John Gilmore
  2020-07-17  1:59   ` Larry McVoy
  2020-07-17  5:30 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2020-07-17 18:16 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread
From: John Gilmore @ 2020-07-17  1:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Grant Taylor; +Cc: The Unix Heritage Society

> The files used to be on tsx-11.mit.edu:/pub/linux/GCC in rootdisk and
> basedisk subdirectories.

There's a copy of the tsx-11 archives in the Internet Archive here,
along with 8 other archival CDs from Pacific HiTech, but it doesn't
seem to include the directories you want:

  https://archive.org/details/OfficialRedHatCommercialLiNUXV3.0.3

The same item also has a copy of the old Sunsite archive on 4 CD images.
Was there a mirror of H.J. Lu's early stuff in sunsite?

Searching for "tsx-11" in the search box at the Internet Archive
turns up half a dozen (typically CDROM .ISO) images of various copies
of the tsx-11 archives.

Unfortunately, the Internet Archive never directly crawled tsx-11.mit.edu,
seemingly because it was never accessible via http?

	John
	

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks
@ 2020-07-16  4:17 Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2020-07-17  1:40 ` John Gilmore
                   ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 89+ messages in thread
From: Grant Taylor via TUHS @ 2020-07-16  4:17 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Unix Heritage Society


[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 599 bytes --]

Is it okay for me to ask a question about Linux that's from '91~'92?

Does anyone happen to have copies of H.J. Lu's Bootable Root and the 
associated Linux Base System disk images from the early '90s?

I've managed to find a copy of 0.98.pl5-31 bootable root disk.  But I 
can't find any base disks to go along with it.

The files used to be on tsx-11.mit.edu:/pub/linux/GCC in rootdisk and 
basedisk subdirectories.

Unfortunately all of the mirrors I'm finding of tsx-11 are newer, have 
the basedisk directories, but no image files there in.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread

end of thread, back to index

Thread overview: 89+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2020-07-17 18:08 [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks Norman Wilson
2020-07-17 18:14 ` John Cowan
2020-07-17 18:19 ` Larry McVoy
2020-07-17 19:53 ` [TUHS] Linux is on-topic Warren Toomey
2020-07-17 19:57   ` Larry McVoy
2020-07-17 20:00     ` Adam Thornton
2020-07-17 20:04       ` Larry McVoy
2020-07-17 20:03     ` Dan Cross
2020-07-17 23:31       ` A. P. Garcia
2020-07-19 10:26       ` emanuel stiebler
2020-07-17 20:07     ` Warren Toomey
2020-07-17 20:12       ` Warner Losh
2020-07-17 20:19       ` Clem Cole
2020-07-19  9:54       ` Sergio Pedraja
2020-07-17 20:08     ` Michael Kjörling
2020-07-17 20:55       ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
2020-07-17 21:28         ` Michael Kjörling
2020-07-18 20:22           ` Ed Carp
2020-07-18 20:29             ` Warner Losh
2020-07-19  2:31               ` Gregg Levine
2020-07-19  3:46               ` Wesley Parish
2020-07-19  4:42                 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
2020-07-19 18:01                   ` Michael Parson
2020-07-20  8:47                     ` [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic] arnold
2020-07-20  9:46                       ` Arno Griffioen
2020-07-20 16:35                         ` Arthur Krewat
2020-07-20 17:44                           ` Arno Griffioen
2020-07-20 19:07                         ` Rich Morin
2020-07-20 19:45                           ` Al Kossow
2020-07-20 19:49                             ` Al Kossow
2020-07-24  0:01                               ` Chris Hanson
2020-07-20 20:20                         ` Ed Carp
2020-07-20 21:02                           ` John Cowan
2020-07-20 22:27                             ` Ed Carp
2020-07-24  0:04                             ` Chris Hanson
2020-07-31 23:02                             ` Dave Horsfall
2020-07-31 23:12                               ` Richard Salz
2020-08-01  1:36                                 ` Larry McVoy
2020-08-01 16:08                                   ` Nemo Nusquam
2020-08-01 17:01                                     ` Arthur Krewat
2020-07-24  0:02                           ` Chris Hanson
2020-07-20  9:48                       ` Andrew Warkentin
2020-07-20 11:49                         ` Larry McVoy
2020-07-20 14:36                           ` Clem Cole
2020-07-20 17:24                           ` John Cowan
2020-07-20 22:11                           ` Ed Carp
2020-07-21  1:04                             ` Larry McVoy
2020-07-22  3:13                               ` tytso
2020-07-22  5:40                                 ` Bakul Shah
2020-07-22 14:16                                   ` Larry McVoy
2020-07-20 12:32                       ` Derrik Walker v2.0
2020-07-20 12:54                         ` Andrew Warkentin
2020-07-21  1:50                           ` Larry McVoy
2020-07-21  2:30                             ` Gregg Levine
2020-07-22  3:44                         ` Jason
2020-07-22 12:23                           ` Derrik Walker v2.0
2020-07-20 14:28                       ` Clem Cole
2020-07-22  3:50                         ` Jason
2020-07-22  4:26                           ` Henry Bent
2020-07-24  0:10                             ` Chris Hanson
2020-07-20  0:24               ` [TUHS] Linux is on-topic Ed Carp
2020-07-22  3:41             ` Jason
2020-07-22 16:15               ` Michael Parson
2020-07-18  3:34     ` Tomasz Rola
2020-07-18 16:45     ` Christopher Browne
2020-07-19  7:32       ` Lars Brinkhoff
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2020-07-16  4:17 [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks Grant Taylor via TUHS
2020-07-17  1:40 ` John Gilmore
2020-07-17  1:59   ` Larry McVoy
2020-07-17  3:35     ` Larry McVoy
2020-07-17  5:18       ` Random832
2020-07-17 13:12         ` Ron Pool
2020-07-17 23:50         ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
2020-07-21  4:15           ` tytso
2020-07-21 17:49             ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
2020-07-17  5:23       ` Petr Titěra
2020-07-17  5:41         ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
2020-07-17  6:04           ` Petr Titěra
2020-07-17 15:12             ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
2020-07-17 17:19               ` Larry McVoy
2020-07-17 17:26               ` Warner Losh
2020-07-17 17:50                 ` Adam Thornton
2020-07-17 20:16                 ` Petr Titěra
2020-07-17 21:48                 ` A. P. Garcia
2020-07-17 19:46               ` Harald Arnesen
2020-07-17  5:24       ` Adam Thornton
2020-07-17  5:30 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
2020-07-17 20:37   ` Petr Titěra
2020-07-17 18:16 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS

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