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* Re: [TUHS] Will pdp 11/04 run unix?
@ 2020-07-30 17:20 Noel Chiappa
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Noel Chiappa @ 2020-07-30 17:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs; +Cc: jnc

    > From: Clem Cole

    > And if you could find a KS-11 MMU that Ken and Dennis had for the 11/20
    > ... we can't even find documentation about it (Ken's surviving code is
    > the best doc we have).

Where is that code? The Version 1 at TUHS appears to pre-date it.

It would be great to have a look at it, we might be able to partially document
the KS11 using it. (Ken had only vague memories of the KS11.)


    > From: Ronald Natalie

    > There's always MiniUnix.

Ah; I didn't realize that was something different from LSX (the LSI-11
system).

	Noel

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Will pdp 11/04 run unix?
  2020-07-30 21:37 Noel Chiappa
@ 2020-07-31  7:10 ` Angelo Papenhoff
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Angelo Papenhoff @ 2020-07-31  7:10 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On 30/07/20, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>     > From: Angelo Papenhoff
> 
>     > I believe 11/20 UNIX also needs the EAE.
> 
> Some applications might have used it (the story about the KS11 bug with the
> KW11-A confirms they did use it on that machine), but I found no trace of use
> of it in a quick scan of the entire Version 1 source (the one which is
> extant).
> 
> Also, the first file in the OS source:
> 
>   https://www.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=V1/u0.s
> 
> lists the addresses of all device registers, and the KE11-A isn't there.

Oh ok. The B runtime uses the EAE so i assumed it was used in other
places as well.

> If the KE11 is needed to run some application on the -11/04, there are
> KE11-B's (program compatible, but a single hex card) available, ISTR.  For
> emulation, something (SIMH?) supports it, since the TV -11 on ITS (now running
> in emulation,I'm pretty sure) uses it.

Well the TV-11 is a tough question. I originally wrote an 11/05 emulator
because some document said it was an 11/10 (which is the same thing).
But other sources claimed it was an 11/20. you can build both versions
and both work. My EAE emulation is based on the KE-11A document from
bitsavers. (code here: https://github.com/aap/pdp11 )

aap

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Will pdp 11/04 run unix?
@ 2020-07-30 21:37 Noel Chiappa
  2020-07-31  7:10 ` Angelo Papenhoff
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Noel Chiappa @ 2020-07-30 21:37 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs; +Cc: jnc

    > From: Angelo Papenhoff

    > I believe 11/20 UNIX also needs the EAE.

Some applications might have used it (the story about the KS11 bug with the
KW11-A confirms they did use it on that machine), but I found no trace of use
of it in a quick scan of the entire Version 1 source (the one which is
extant).

Also, the first file in the OS source:

  https://www.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=V1/u0.s

lists the addresses of all device registers, and the KE11-A isn't there.

If the KE11 is needed to run some application on the -11/04, there are
KE11-B's (program compatible, but a single hex card) available, ISTR.  For
emulation, something (SIMH?) supports it, since the TV -11 on ITS (now running
in emulation,I'm pretty sure) uses it.

	 Noel

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Will pdp 11/04 run unix?
  2020-07-30 13:47 Noel Chiappa
  2020-07-30 14:08 ` Ronald Natalie
  2020-07-30 16:13 ` Warner Losh
@ 2020-07-30 18:55 ` Angelo Papenhoff
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Angelo Papenhoff @ 2020-07-30 18:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On 30/07/20, Noel Chiappa wrote:
> - If you get the V1 that ran on an -11/20 (which is mostly compatible with
> the /04 and /05), it should run on an /04. (Not sure what you'd use for mass
> storage, on a physical /04, though.) I'm not sure when they dropped the /20 -
> I think V4 n(at the latest)? But V2 and V3 are lost.

It looks like v3 was when they forked off 11/45 UNIX. ("The second, or
even the first, edition of this manual is likely to be more appropriate.")

I believe 11/20 UNIX also needs the EAE.

aap

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Will pdp 11/04 run unix?
  2020-07-30 16:13 ` Warner Losh
@ 2020-07-30 18:00   ` Heinz Lycklama
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Heinz Lycklama @ 2020-07-30 18:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs


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As the author of both LSX and Mini-UNIX, I would suggest that the
LSX source code is a better starting point for the 11/04, especially
if single-user is the target. Mini-UNIX was written to support a
small number of users on the PDP 11/10 without an MMU.
However, I'm not current on what sources are still available.

Heinz

On 7/30/2020 9:13 AM, Warner Losh wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 7:49 AM Noel Chiappa <jnc@mercury.lcs.mit.edu 
> <mailto:jnc@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>> wrote:
>
>     - If you get the V1 that ran on an -11/20 (which is mostly
>     compatible with
>     the /04 and /05), it should run on an /04. (Not sure what you'd
>     use for mass
>     storage, on a physical /04, though.) I'm not sure when they
>     dropped the /20 -
>     I think V4 n(at the latest)? But V2 and V3 are lost.
>
>
> Yes, the reconstructed 1st edition may run (though from dates and 
> such, it's somewhere between 1st and 2nd edition), though I've no 
> direct experience with 11/04 hardware, nor ideas on how to bootstrap 
> it onto appropriate physical media...
>
> I have it in my head that the 4th edition was rewritten for the 11/45 
> and removed support for 11/20. I thought I knew why, but could only 
> find part of the story in the manuals...
>
> There's a strong note in the 4th edition preface that it applies only 
> to the 'c' version of Unix and the 3rd edition preface has a 
> note saying the manual doesn't apply to the 11/20 version and to look 
> in the 2nd or even 1st edition manuals for that.
>
> As others have mentioned, Mini-unix and/or LSX might have a shot, but 
> it might be best characterized as a long shot.
>
> Warner


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* Re: [TUHS] Will pdp 11/04 run unix?
  2020-07-30 13:47 Noel Chiappa
  2020-07-30 14:08 ` Ronald Natalie
@ 2020-07-30 16:13 ` Warner Losh
  2020-07-30 18:00   ` Heinz Lycklama
  2020-07-30 18:55 ` Angelo Papenhoff
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Warner Losh @ 2020-07-30 16:13 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Noel Chiappa; +Cc: TUHS main list


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On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 7:49 AM Noel Chiappa <jnc@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
wrote:

> - If you get the V1 that ran on an -11/20 (which is mostly compatible with
> the /04 and /05), it should run on an /04. (Not sure what you'd use for
> mass
> storage, on a physical /04, though.) I'm not sure when they dropped the
> /20 -
> I think V4 n(at the latest)? But V2 and V3 are lost.
>

Yes, the reconstructed 1st edition may run (though from dates and such,
it's somewhere between 1st and 2nd edition), though I've no direct
experience with 11/04 hardware, nor ideas on how to bootstrap it onto
appropriate physical media...

I have it in my head that the 4th edition was rewritten for the 11/45 and
removed support for 11/20. I thought I knew why, but could only find part
of the story in the manuals...

There's a strong note in the 4th edition preface that it applies only to
the 'c' version of Unix and the 3rd edition preface has a note saying the
manual doesn't apply to the 11/20 version and to look in the 2nd or even
1st edition manuals for that.

As others have mentioned, Mini-unix and/or LSX might have a shot, but it
might be best characterized as a long shot.

Warner

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Will pdp 11/04 run unix?
  2020-07-30 13:47 Noel Chiappa
@ 2020-07-30 14:08 ` Ronald Natalie
  2020-07-30 16:13 ` Warner Losh
  2020-07-30 18:55 ` Angelo Papenhoff
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Ronald Natalie @ 2020-07-30 14:08 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Noel Chiappa; +Cc: TUHS main list


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> 
> - There's a 'Unix' for the LSI-11, and with minor changes (the LSI-11 isn't
> 100% compatible with other MMU-less 11's, but the changes are minor, e.g.
> MOS, written in MACRO-11, was conditionalized to run on both the LSI-11
> and the -11/20) it should run on an /04.
> 
> 	Noel

There’s always MiniUnix.    https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/USDL/Mini-Unix/ <https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/USDL/Mini-Unix/>

We ran that on our MMU-less PDP-11/20s and 11/40 before the LSI-11 was even introduced.
It lacks obviously memory protection, traditional UNIX pipes (they’re simulated by the shell if I recall), and preemptive scheduling.


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Will pdp 11/04 run unix?
  2020-07-30 13:53 ` Clem Cole
@ 2020-07-30 14:01   ` Clem Cole
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Clem Cole @ 2020-07-30 14:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Will Senn; +Cc: TUHS main list


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s/note the data/note the date/  <-- dyslexic typing -- sigh.

On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 9:53 AM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:

> PDP 11/04, like 11/03,11/05, 11/15, 11/20 lacks an MMU.    So the
> traditional releases from Research, USG, UCB will not boot.
> That said, V1 which ran without it might work with some tweeking as they
> did not yet have one.  And if you could find a KS-11 MMU that Ken and
> Dennis had for the 11/20 (which was designed by DEC CSS), theoretically
> next versions could be made to run.   The problem is that while many of us
> have looked a: we can not find a KS-11 in real life (CSS did make that
> many), b: we can't even find documentation about it (Ken's surviving code
> is the best doc we have).
>
> FYI:  go to bitsavers and download a copy of the PDP-11 Processor
> Handbook, but note the data.  You probably will want (at least) both
> an early and a later one, as the later ones often dropped details about
> some of the models that were not being manufactured.   For instance, I have
> a couple of different ones, and the '78 version really one talks about
> 04/34/45/55/60 - the previous processors like 03/15/40 are not included.
> So you need an early 70's version to include them, and later versions for
> the 44/90 etc.
>
> BTW:  Page 4 of same, have a graphic showing the HW requirements for the
> DEC OS's. On the X-axis is the OS, the Y axis the model.  RT-11, MUMPS-11,
> RSX-11M, RS-11S are the only OS's that were supported for the 04.
>
> Here is a hint, if the processor could not support RSTS, it is unlikely it
> could support UNIX.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 9:17 AM Will Senn <will.senn@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> The question is can I run Unix on a PDP 11/04? I've dug around and it's
>> unclear to me, so I'm asking y'all.
>>
>> Will
>>
>> --
>> GPG Fingerprint: 68F4 B3BD 1730 555A 4462  7D45 3EAA 5B6D A982 BAAF
>>
>>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Will pdp 11/04 run unix?
  2020-07-30 13:16 Will Senn
@ 2020-07-30 13:53 ` Clem Cole
  2020-07-30 14:01   ` Clem Cole
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Clem Cole @ 2020-07-30 13:53 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Will Senn; +Cc: TUHS main list


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PDP 11/04, like 11/03,11/05, 11/15, 11/20 lacks an MMU.    So the
traditional releases from Research, USG, UCB will not boot.
That said, V1 which ran without it might work with some tweeking as they
did not yet have one.  And if you could find a KS-11 MMU that Ken and
Dennis had for the 11/20 (which was designed by DEC CSS), theoretically
next versions could be made to run.   The problem is that while many of us
have looked a: we can not find a KS-11 in real life (CSS did make that
many), b: we can't even find documentation about it (Ken's surviving code
is the best doc we have).

FYI:  go to bitsavers and download a copy of the PDP-11 Processor
Handbook, but note the data.  You probably will want (at least) both
an early and a later one, as the later ones often dropped details about
some of the models that were not being manufactured.   For instance, I have
a couple of different ones, and the '78 version really one talks about
04/34/45/55/60 - the previous processors like 03/15/40 are not included.
So you need an early 70's version to include them, and later versions for
the 44/90 etc.

BTW:  Page 4 of same, have a graphic showing the HW requirements for the
DEC OS's. On the X-axis is the OS, the Y axis the model.  RT-11, MUMPS-11,
RSX-11M, RS-11S are the only OS's that were supported for the 04.

Here is a hint, if the processor could not support RSTS, it is unlikely it
could support UNIX.



On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 9:17 AM Will Senn <will.senn@gmail.com> wrote:

> The question is can I run Unix on a PDP 11/04? I've dug around and it's
> unclear to me, so I'm asking y'all.
>
> Will
>
> --
> GPG Fingerprint: 68F4 B3BD 1730 555A 4462  7D45 3EAA 5B6D A982 BAAF
>
>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Will pdp 11/04 run unix?
@ 2020-07-30 13:47 Noel Chiappa
  2020-07-30 14:08 ` Ronald Natalie
                   ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Noel Chiappa @ 2020-07-30 13:47 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs; +Cc: jnc

    > From: Will Senn

    > can I run Unix on a PDP 11/04? 

No, it doesn't have memory management, so not any of the well-known 'stock'
versions (V5/V6/etc).
Two choices, though:

- If you get the V1 that ran on an -11/20 (which is mostly compatible with
the /04 and /05), it should run on an /04. (Not sure what you'd use for mass
storage, on a physical /04, though.) I'm not sure when they dropped the /20 -
I think V4 n(at the latest)? But V2 and V3 are lost.

- There's a 'Unix' for the LSI-11, and with minor changes (the LSI-11 isn't
100% compatible with other MMU-less 11's, but the changes are minor, e.g.
MOS, written in MACRO-11, was conditionalized to run on both the LSI-11
and the -11/20) it should run on an /04.

	Noel

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Will pdp 11/04 run unix?
@ 2020-07-30 13:16 Will Senn
  2020-07-30 13:53 ` Clem Cole
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Will Senn @ 2020-07-30 13:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: TUHS main list


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The question is can I run Unix on a PDP 11/04? I've dug around and it's 
unclear to me, so I'm asking y'all.

Will

-- 
GPG Fingerprint: 68F4 B3BD 1730 555A 4462  7D45 3EAA 5B6D A982 BAAF


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread

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Thread overview: 11+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
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2020-07-30 17:20 [TUHS] Will pdp 11/04 run unix? Noel Chiappa
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2020-07-30 21:37 Noel Chiappa
2020-07-31  7:10 ` Angelo Papenhoff
2020-07-30 13:47 Noel Chiappa
2020-07-30 14:08 ` Ronald Natalie
2020-07-30 16:13 ` Warner Losh
2020-07-30 18:00   ` Heinz Lycklama
2020-07-30 18:55 ` Angelo Papenhoff
2020-07-30 13:16 Will Senn
2020-07-30 13:53 ` Clem Cole
2020-07-30 14:01   ` Clem Cole

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