From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_FROM,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 26432 invoked from network); 21 Nov 2020 23:25:30 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 21 Nov 2020 23:25:30 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id BA57C9B96C; Sun, 22 Nov 2020 09:25:25 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 741B593F9F; Sun, 22 Nov 2020 09:25:00 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="j70+zDWS"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id E773A93F9F; Sun, 22 Nov 2020 09:24:56 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-pg1-f175.google.com (mail-pg1-f175.google.com [209.85.215.175]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C895693DAD for ; Sun, 22 Nov 2020 09:24:55 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-pg1-f175.google.com with SMTP id f17so2201784pge.6 for ; Sat, 21 Nov 2020 15:24:55 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-disposition:in-reply-to:user-agent; bh=taHwtiEU7ecP6VY9YfciljG5T0yp4c7oOhM0kvndRLU=; b=j70+zDWSWTBLOG1itmRzAaGhDVde57asOTfmNY2xQ3uTpt7hXes2XeVTbRQKAECyFe x7/bf4hUKRJwdljvfkuz8Yxa0epnMnOHcZNXZhBT2n3WmBZ2z2jxP8G8Van0qwhEfXXZ 1BvWAHhWSyuZCdwsZPlzll5SQCqwtJWbTsh4Vzx25MXUhcFhSw7aqRLnZMo8NzFb0ZyC 14uQc3e3HqcxgnAtzB9n5aBdLRPQNaX6imYIVJp0SISbIerLKaHgg87+Y0KnAMo8BFiG FSuDY0HjDJwavUzahSUE4yTRcK2/u8b2fZnw1QAa1RfsRd/sh+eYCmQRDGjXkl/w0Jtv 3I9A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:subject:message-id:references :mime-version:content-disposition:in-reply-to:user-agent; bh=taHwtiEU7ecP6VY9YfciljG5T0yp4c7oOhM0kvndRLU=; b=VGcm/obpMqwamEfDcDjvjUvVBFbLVd3xOz5QoCasstsENYwVDYcf0JQXV6zcPK5irj Y+/Mcdtl4MXsOq4bsNBwKUW0ZPr34e3TTsc6UF6k1m3ESKE2KEsmQDp3rcOt57ENZcaR InWGnW+yihk2wPK4+wiVh0ZovOTLG74xTa0mVNbYgbgh1jtIL++kg5Hjblq39koGqzLQ skAGKYvf8flpB5PmGuqVKwnBeWAmZtIIYu+8mQJiBk6phYukj90qfR4XKRnYAEShdph6 DiJ06V/3TxHWzkTCOfHOJY51ZgyL1Q20IhLEnjeWLz+uNwiXai4aOJpHhuQewDertIEJ 4IFg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532HIBIh6j6x3fxtVC4N5McBxNEFQB3orEaimQKXhIIndeVI2oNJ XoTLgMnTLl0Yd0D57ZiY3E4ziTjmk/c= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyQ8friv5XvQzlvp9GnXetuIurZsJYkhmR83obX/cYr5gVFrYnSNFUhcDkymnIB9m10IO6e8w== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:4b87:: with SMTP id lr7mr16379359pjb.40.1606001095050; Sat, 21 Nov 2020 15:24:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([1.129.163.237]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s26sm7191039pgv.93.2020.11.21.15.24.53 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sat, 21 Nov 2020 15:24:54 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2020 10:24:51 +1100 From: "G. Branden Robinson" To: TUHS main list Message-ID: <20201121232448.mwxq4kjjvpth4c4b@localhost.localdomain> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="3lf7ouvfghxwwi63" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180716 Subject: Re: [TUHS] Package Management X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --3lf7ouvfghxwwi63 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline At 2020-11-21T17:23:45-0500, Clem Cole wrote: > Roll forward a couple of years and Linux eventually picked up Jordan's > basic installer framework which vastly improved the out-of-box for > some of the Linux distros. But the important thing that RH did beyond > FreeBSD was to create RPM, which added a setld like DB to the scheme, > not for licenses, but so that you could easily do updates, add > options, etc. They combined Jordans install ideas and packages ideas, > which was cool for a system where you got/get everything from the > distro. The complete lack of mention of dpkg and the Debian package format is an error in your narrative. According to rpm.org, the "first commit" to the rpm package management software was on November 27, 1995[1]. By this time, dpkg had already been around for over a year; you can find Ian Jackson's release announcement of dpkg 0.93.63 in July 1995[2], and dpkg's own "ChangeLog.old" file in its source tree documents its history back to August 1994. > So ... now we have apt-get - which for what it is, works pretty well > but, it still does not solve a problem someone like my firm has that > sells commercial SW. It is worth noting that apt also originated in Debian, largely developed by Jason Gunthorpe but originally uploaded by Scott Ellis in April 1998[3]. Despite apt's popularity and obvious technical advantages in upgrade management (a cycle-breaking dependency analyzer)--it drew grudging admiration even from many in the community who abhorred uttering the words "Debian", "GNU/Linux", or both--and a deliberately package-format-agnostic architecture, RPM-based distributions resisted adopting it for years until Conectiva, a commercial distribution from Brazil, wrote the requisite back-end for rpm support (apt-rpm)[4]. > FWIW: Since I actually wrote the spec for it inside Intel, I can tell > you what the design/goal/direction to tell the install teams in that > my employer distributes using RPM and >>is suppose<< to work > unmodified with an RPM-based install (*i.e.* be 'socially compliant' > to the norms of a more commercial-like Linux site). The >>idea<< is > that the RPMs are supposed to be able to automatically converted to > Yum and a few other formats (check the specs here for each tool, > however -- this is not a warranty from me - YMMV -- just telling what > I >>personal<< scream at the team when I discover they did not test > properly as sometimes they do break that - which can cause big issues > when trying to install on a supercomputer). These norms tend to be distribution-specific. Even where technology is the same, the norms that produce integration can differ. Little about Unix kernels prescribes any particular filesystem hierarchy, for instance. It has often been observed that what quality the Debian system enjoys is less due to its technological advantages--though IMO these are clear in package format (deb), source package format (dsc) and administration tools--but in Debian's culture of writing prescriptions for a consistent system configuration in its Policy Manual[5], of maintaining automated checking tools for compliance with those prescriptions[6][7], and of being willing to gate releases on the lack of such compliance. The last used to be a point of emphatic derision by rival distributions, most of which were funded by venture capital and thus motivated to emphasize cadence over technical quality, the former property being more easily measured by non-specialists, deep-pocketed and otherwise. Regards, Branden [1] https://rpm.org/timeline.html [2] https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/1995/07/msg00009.html [3] https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-changes/1998/04/msg00140.html [4] https://lwn.net/Articles/30728/ [5] https://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ [6] https://lintian.debian.org/ [7] https://piuparts.debian.org/ --3lf7ouvfghxwwi63 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEh3PWHWjjDgcrENwa0Z6cfXEmbc4FAl+5obgACgkQ0Z6cfXEm bc5wsw//Q9MMdXBorq20IrZwvKPD2inQYvuU48MlXqn4NXJNe0vjbTnVwEvb9Mdl RnAspJPS0gwpvlI8aae/bgTS+RsiCDSXqHBGqcLAha9LoC+j/pXVP7AR+fLmkeOW fdu78F7YDxBEB3LVlI2V01hprM0/snzF6qzTCtJIBR5Bd9eIzERv0FOrL1he+kZ8 M+tOTlkh0Je43j3v1mc6n9i43ygTOAQW12LNyKL/7NPMnxq6rqhCSxFPp8hAlsIN NH+nN1VGZHlM8tkf8m0PY3ACNEFqPMAKPMK298l6Lt7cgZemeV6WzWGTYPW5g7PD YaYnKafWHGUDEsECPc5Gh8qo7bj2Dff05X6UcIjEKCLw+rLKYZ8lXSjNk9REUO/6 ryVbFufajA/uZM6CQf1WaMmn7hYUXX+1kWaUPQcP1k3wC9Xq/K0Zkoe59BqmOZv+ 7bUQX85BhCDLjALCL6xOiH5FlT+lRVgxJCWTVdGLHSEPm6kveBYmVyXVFvqT6Hme U4Ak6HBHR9vwRbo4WEJgk/1vETz3rbZnZsxV0nzcQnqWbKpcdqg7hIIcZO+NN/K7 AhIHuN1N+i0w5cw1e63ut4CQ1NwGbUg4PqsF+hYASJ8pymxLc9RdTDcDW6DvTKzu xCja0FWyozJQRiMc7XJMjadq8fL2V+msKD9hK3loT0dDZ3LYELQ= =MWqK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --3lf7ouvfghxwwi63--