From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 9620 invoked from network); 30 Jan 2021 23:31:36 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 30 Jan 2021 23:31:36 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 7DAED9C87F; Sun, 31 Jan 2021 09:31:34 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22A319C653; Sun, 31 Jan 2021 09:31:21 +1000 (AEST) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id D52A99C653; Sun, 31 Jan 2021 09:31:18 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mcvoy.com (mcvoy.com [192.169.23.250]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 628B59C63D for ; Sun, 31 Jan 2021 09:31:18 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mcvoy.com (Postfix, from userid 3546) id 0D8E135E1AD; Sat, 30 Jan 2021 15:31:18 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2021 15:31:18 -0800 From: Larry McVoy To: Warner Losh Message-ID: <20210130233117.GR4568@mcvoy.com> References: <202101301950.10UJoWeA456408@darkstar.fourwinds.com> <20210130222854.GN4227@mcvoy.com> <20210130231119.GA33905@eureka.lemis.com> <20210130231750.GQ4227@mcvoy.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) Subject: Re: [TUHS] [SPAM] Re: FreeBSD behind the times? (was: Favorite unix design principles?) X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 04:22:49PM -0700, Warner Losh wrote: > On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 4:19 PM Larry McVoy wrote: > > > On Sun, Jan 31, 2021 at 10:11:19AM +1100, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > > > > I remember when Linux was this bad in the .90ish releases. A long > > > > time ago. Now their install is painless, it's every bit as good as > > > > Windows and maybe better. > > > > > > FWIW, I find Microsoft "Windows" installation terminally confusing > > > (that's what you were talking about, right?). And I've run into > > > serious problems with various Linux installations too. That doesn't > > > make the FreeBSD tools better, but maybe it relativizes it. > > > > Um, my mother could install any Linux system today and 10-20 years ago. > > There is not the slightest chance that she could install FreeBSD. > > I find that hard to believe. The defaults just work on the vast majority of > systems, even if the interface is text-based and not a fancy GUI... I speak from experience of trying to install FreeBSD on a netflix server a couple of years back. It wasn't pleasant and it seems pretty identical to the installer I used decades ago. > > > > FreeBSD is stuck in the 1990's in terms of user interface. > > > > > > You're still talking about the installer, aren't you? > > > > Yup. If FreeBSD wants anyone to use it, fix that installer. 99.99% > > of people would give up after seeing that, you'd never get them to > > userland. > > No argument there... Part of the problem is that, up until relatively > lately, the whole X experience sucked really badly on FreeBSD. Now that it > doesn't suck, it's time for a re-evaluation... It's 20 years past the time for that re-evaluation. Seriously, Linux distros have been installing in X for at least 20 years, I think maybe more. If they can do it.... > > > > They've done some good stuff in the kernel but it's not an end user > > > > system, > > > > > > There I have to agree with you. A little TLC would go a long way. > > > But I hope that you're not advocating the "change your GUI with your > > > underwear" attitude that Microsoft, Apple and many Linux distros > > > have. One of the reasons I don't use Linux is because every time I > > > try, the interface has changed. > > > > Try xubuntu, that's what I use. Pretty light weight UI but all the > > parts are there and it doesn't change much. > > But yet it's not stuck? Nope, it's not remotely stuck. I get it, you like FreeBSD. That's fine but be honest about where it is. How many of the developers with a commit bit actually run FreeBSD on their desktop and laptops? As their daily platform?