From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 12051 invoked from network); 10 Feb 2021 02:24:59 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 10 Feb 2021 02:24:59 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 716C19B955; Wed, 10 Feb 2021 12:24:56 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC07394F1A; Wed, 10 Feb 2021 12:24:29 +1000 (AEST) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id BFBD894F1A; Wed, 10 Feb 2021 12:24:26 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mcvoy.com (mcvoy.com [192.169.23.250]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C7BA094F19 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2021 12:24:25 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mcvoy.com (Postfix, from userid 3546) id C961735E34C; Tue, 9 Feb 2021 18:24:24 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2021 18:24:24 -0800 From: Larry McVoy To: George Michaelson Message-ID: <20210210022424.GT13701@mcvoy.com> References: <202102091900.119J0Gv9850825@darkstar.fourwinds.com> <20210210014123.GS13701@mcvoy.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) Subject: Re: [TUHS] Macs and future unix derivatives X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: TUHS main list Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" I'm going to rant a little here, George, this is not to you, it's to the topic. You are correct but a lot of us learned from a uniprocessor kernel. I certainly did. So there is MP and then there is MP. SGI redid all of their kernel structs so that the most important stuff was on the same cache line. The 1980's and 1990's talked about SMP and then there was a whole series of papers that talked about cache affinity which was geek speak for the S in SMP wasn't. It's just layers and layers of more complexity. Which we can talk about and us older folks want to say isn't needed. We're wrong. I'm with Ted. [1] He's active in the Linux kernel, has been for a long time, he's someone that I know is better than me at kernel stuff. He has kept up, so far as I can tell, when there is yet another layer of something, he's a guy that goes and digs into that something and learns about it, reasons about it, weighs the tradeoffs. He is NOT a guy that just shoves stuff into the kernel on a whim. He thinks, he does the tradeoffs. And he is here saying well, what do you want? You want all the stuff you have or are you willing to go run in v7? Who among us is running v7, or some other kernel that we all love because we understand it? I'd venture a guess that it is noone. We like our X11, we like that we can do "make -j" and you can build a kernel in a minute or two, we like our web browsers, we like a lot of stuff that if you look at it from the lens "but it should be simple", but that lens doesn't give us what we want. I get it. I love the clean simple lines that were the original Unix but we live in a more complex world. Ted is straddling those lines and he's doing the best he can and his best is pretty darn good. I'd argue listen to Ted. He's got the balance. --lm [1] Truth in advertising, Ted and I are friends, we used to hike together in Pacifica, we like each other. On Wed, Feb 10, 2021 at 11:52:21AM +1000, George Michaelson wrote: > I won't dispute your age, or how many layers of pearl are on the seed > Larry, but MP unix was a thing long long ago. > > I am pretty sure it was written up in BSTJ, and there was Pyramid by > 1984/5 and an MP unix system otherwise running at Melbourne University > (Rob Elz) around 1988. > > You might be ancient, but you weren't THAT ancient in the 1980s. > > anyway, pearls before swine, and age before beauty. > > -G -- --- Larry McVoy lm at mcvoy.com http://www.mcvoy.com/lm