From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 5373 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2021 13:35:58 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 3 Jul 2021 13:35:58 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 00DD19C87F; Sat, 3 Jul 2021 23:35:55 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7355C9C86C; Sat, 3 Jul 2021 23:35:06 +1000 (AEST) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 2C5A49C86C; Sat, 3 Jul 2021 23:35:04 +1000 (AEST) Received: from sdaoden.eu (sdaoden.eu [217.144.132.164]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3634E9C864 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2021 23:35:03 +1000 (AEST) Received: from kent.sdaoden.eu (kent.sdaoden.eu [10.5.0.2]) by sdaoden.eu (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A29D516056; Sat, 3 Jul 2021 15:35:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: by kent.sdaoden.eu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 89DF611A9F; Sat, 3 Jul 2021 15:34:58 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2021 15:34:58 +0200 Author: Steffen Nurpmeso From: Steffen Nurpmeso To: Steve Nickolas Message-ID: <20210703133458.yDV-p%steffen@sdaoden.eu> In-Reply-To: <20210702234941.MjMt0%steffen@sdaoden.eu> References: <20210702213648.GW817@mcvoy.com> <20210702234941.MjMt0%steffen@sdaoden.eu> Mail-Followup-To: Steve Nickolas , The Unix Heritage Society mailing list User-Agent: s-nail v14.9.22-168-g5c45763050 OpenPGP: id=EE19E1C1F2F7054F8D3954D8308964B51883A0DD; url=https://ftp.sdaoden.eu/steffen.asc; preference=signencrypt BlahBlahBlah: Any stupid boy can crush a beetle. But all the professors in the world can make no bugs. Subject: Re: [TUHS] [tuhs] The Unix shell: a 50-year view X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" Steffen Nurpmeso wrote in <20210702234941.MjMt0%steffen@sdaoden.eu>: |Steve Nickolas wrote in | : ||On Fri, 2 Jul 2021, Henry Bent wrote: ||> On Fri, 2 Jul 2021 at 17:38, Larry McVoy wrote: ||>> As I started reading it I found plenty to disagree with in the \ ||>> first few ||>> paragraphs but they completely lost me at "After all, moving from \ ||>> System ||>> V init scripts to systemd has arguably improvedthe Linux boot sequence.\ ||>> " ||>> ||>> Um, no, just, no. ... ||The Linux distro I use does use systemd but I can ignore it and go \ ||on with ||my life as if it were still running sysvinit. So it's not that big \ ||a deal ||to me. || ||I'd prefer that they kept sysvinit, but eh. What's that saying? "Those ||who fail to understand Unix are condemned to recreate it, poorly" ? | |Well iwd(8) for example that i happen to have installed as ... |.. whatever), and note that iwd neither supports a normal syslog |nor command line parameters to configure paths etc., the latter |have to come in via environment if they shall, and the manual says |these are "normally provided by systemd" (which is not true .. for |me). And no syslog at all! No PID file handling. And bugs even |though Intel.com paid for it. I mean "get up, stand up", they do |a thousand things and not seldom i wonder. And not to mention that there is a builtin DHCP server, but it only can be integrated nicely "back" into systemd, or resolvconf. You know, so much logic, and then not even the possibility to simply say "hook" to invoke a simply shell script. So i need dhcpcd in addition, just for that hook that i use, for example, to setup dnsmasq resolv, and to start a shell-based rdate(8) hook to contact my ntpd-driving web VM via VPN. I mean, what can happen, address, gateway, and some more variables. Carrier gained and carrier lost. Just some environment variables to pass along. And mind you, it is getting worse it seems. They write their software more and more integrated specifically for systemd beyond that iwd thing. They do not generate manual pages when creating release balls. They require newest compiler additions for some minor syntax sugar on less that one percent of their codebase. It seems some new "systems" even require an active internet connection .. for compiling the software! (Rust?) I mean, that is not new. Zawinski's complain on completely rewriting Netscape Navigator in C++ for the rewrites sake can still be read on the web. In parts it may be normal progression, it is just the dumb to which it appears as entanglement. With a "Happy to be stupid", Ciao from Germany, --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt)