From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 13532 invoked from network); 5 Jul 2021 07:15:54 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 5 Jul 2021 07:15:54 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 114949CA3F; Mon, 5 Jul 2021 17:15:52 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1168B9C9F1; Mon, 5 Jul 2021 17:14:58 +1000 (AEST) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id C170F9C9F1; Mon, 5 Jul 2021 17:14:54 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mailout7.ceti.pl (mailout7.ceti.pl [62.121.128.47]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8599B9C9F0 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2021 17:14:53 +1000 (AEST) Received: from tau1.ceti.pl (tau.ceti.pl [62.121.128.11]) by mailout7.ceti.pl (Postfix) with ESMTP id F10A337810E8; Mon, 5 Jul 2021 09:14:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: by tau1.ceti.pl (Postfix, from userid 3727) id D21FE9608EA; Mon, 5 Jul 2021 09:14:50 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2021 09:14:50 +0200 From: Tomasz Rola To: Dan Cross Message-ID: <20210705071450.GA12885@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <20210702213648.GW817@mcvoy.com> <396911b232bae5938068a14fe0f7181e@firemail.de> <20210704004757.GB24671@tau1.ceti.pl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Subject: Re: [TUHS] [tuhs] The Unix shell: a 50-year view X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" On Sun, Jul 04, 2021 at 08:48:23AM -0400, Dan Cross wrote: [...] > I didn't say that Unix is no longer relevant. I said that the problems that > were prominent when Unix was built, and that thus shaped its architecture, > are much _less_ relevant now than they were at the time. They still have > some relevance, but are no longer primary for the vast majority of use > cases Unix is used for. Further, the way people approach problems now has > changed, even if they still generically assume "Unix" as the base they > build on. I have misread you then. I suppose the main problem that Unix solved fifty years ago was the need for OS on a not very big (but cheap!) machine. There were quite a few such systems and various such 16, 18-bit machines. So Unix was one of many, and what made it successful was rewriting in C (I think I have read about it somewhere). Various guys ported C compiler to their machines and to test it, they compiled Unix sources (I am sure I have read about this). So as C gained popularity, so did Unix gained popularity and C was the prog lang of Unix, thus with every new Unix install C gained even more popularity. So, looking from this perspective, maybe there was nothing particularly special in Unix as such. It was just a double pump of C-Unix, mutually pumping each other's success story. I am not sure. I tried to find some time and install old OS on simh/pdp11, yet there was always something more pressing to do. Some alternatives to Unix, judging by their wikipedia descriptions, did not convince me - like, one OS booted straight into debugger, if memory serves. I do not think I would like that in everyday use. And after reading about TECO, plenty of editors seem like better choice for me :-). Anyway, my own reasons to stick to Unix(-like) did not change. In middle 1990-ties, after few years of playing with Amiga, and few years of playing with SunOS/Solaris, it was clear to me what I wanted next (Amiga was getting old rather quickly, as Commodore ran aground). The OS was to be reliable, multitasking and if possible, cheap. If I was to pay for something, it had to work, so Windows was ruled out. Later on, as I hooked up to the net, security became important, too. Somehow Linux on a 486 clone became a nice drop in replacement for Sunstation and Solaris I used at the uni. I was able to run TeX on it, a database, a program which abused database, an editor (Emacs, joe, vi) with which I made the program and a compiler. All of this on eight megs of ram. With "a bit" of swapping. That was terrific. To do same thing on Windows, I imagined, at least Pentium and about 3x as much ram was needed, plus a very expensive NT, because I did not expected W95 could be relied upon. If I still stick to Unix, it is because I still need something dependable and allowing my various experiments or small time developments. Windows somewhat improved during last twenty five years, but not enough to pay for it - just MHO. In other post you ask, why folks do not find Unix interesting anymore. I still suggest they are following the money. They are the kind of folk who never would find Unix interesting enough based on merits only. Asking about their choices leads us nowwhere, because their choices are not based on technical criteria. What I would like to ask instead, is how many people had been using Unix and decided to drop it, because it no longer worked for them. But not because they had to earn for the living in a World of Windoze, only because Unix tools stopped doing the job and could not be helped with some handmade script or program. I guess reading more about such users could tell something about Unix future or current relevance. Also, reading about why people keep using Unix. Myself, I like doing various things with computer. I create my own needs and then I write small pieces of code to help myself out of the trap. Or something like this. Nowadays, a lot of those needs revolve around learning and organising notes. Of course I could not be using specialised note taking program. Instead, I went with Emacs and org-mode. In the process I had to learn a bit of Elisp and dot-emacs file. Some defaults in Emacs are not comfy for my eyes - fonts, colors, it had to be fine tuned to my liking. So, I think my case could be summed up so: I need dependable software and I have some needs which I know how to satisfy using this software. If the software alone does not suit me, I can make some of lacking elements myself and Unix allows me to join existing and new elements easily. I wonder if other Unix (ab)users share something with me? Like, specialised single-person needs, or putting together building blocks of command line tools, or preference for terminal based software (because it works more often than not)? I guess yes. What do people indifferent to Unix share with themselves, other than general lack of interest, unwillingness to learn awk, disregard to keeping information in text based, line oriented files? HTH, sorry for long email, I tried to trim it but had to left something too :-). -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola@bigfoot.com **