From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 11988 invoked from network); 6 Jul 2021 23:18:12 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 6 Jul 2021 23:18:12 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id BAFC49CA61; Wed, 7 Jul 2021 09:18:09 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2C919CA35; Wed, 7 Jul 2021 09:17:08 +1000 (AEST) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 218E69CA35; Wed, 7 Jul 2021 09:17:05 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mailout7.ceti.pl (mailout7.ceti.pl [62.121.128.47]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CB7FE9CA24 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2021 09:17:03 +1000 (AEST) Received: from tau1.ceti.pl (tau.ceti.pl [62.121.128.11]) by mailout7.ceti.pl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D6BF37811A8; Wed, 7 Jul 2021 01:17:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: by tau1.ceti.pl (Postfix, from userid 3727) id 26669960C3D; Wed, 7 Jul 2021 01:17:00 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2021 01:17:00 +0200 From: Tomasz Rola To: John Cowan Message-ID: <20210706231659.GA13225@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <20210702213648.GW817@mcvoy.com> <396911b232bae5938068a14fe0f7181e@firemail.de> <20210704004757.GB24671@tau1.ceti.pl> <20210705071450.GA12885@tau1.ceti.pl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Subject: Re: [TUHS] [tuhs] The Unix shell: a 50-year view X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" On Mon, Jul 05, 2021 at 12:26:04PM -0400, John Cowan wrote: > On Mon, Jul 5, 2021 at 3:15 AM Tomasz Rola wrote: > [...] > By the way, did anyone else start out on Unix-alikes before using actual > Unix? I read the BSTJ issue and became an instant convert, but only when > $EMPLOYER got a MicroVAX was I able to work like that. Next came the MKS > Toolkit on DOS, and then Cygwin for many years. I suppose it's only my > last two $EMPLOYERs standardizing on the Mac that has left me running, > like, actual Unix. Not quite a Unix-lookalike, but AmigaDOS was a mix of ideas - named volumes (a bit) like in CP/M, multitasking (a bit) like in Unix (but on my model, I only had M68K and no memory protection), command line tools allowing for batch programming more sophisticated than what MSDOS had on table (well, I really never got to the point of abusing this). Also, Aztec C came with a suite of programs resembling what I could later find on Unix: cc, ld, make, ar and few others I forgot. At one point my workflow on Amiga looked similar to my workflow on Solaris and I could help myself with some Amiga programs after reading matching man pages on big box. Better Amigas also had memory protection and newer Workbench (graphical interface and stuff in ROM) and allowed for AREXX (yes, clone of mainframe REXX, never learned it) and with AREXX one could manipulate applications which sported so called REXX-port (if memory serves) and do things very much resembling what one could today do with COM/DCOM objects on Windows. I.e. your AREXX script could perform batch process with painting program, with word processor, perhaps with desktop publishing and so on. [...] > True. But then, many of us geeks make our choices not on technical > criteria but on tribal loyalty. Which is *technically* superior, vi or > emacs? (Please don't answer that.) Mu! [ Mu (negative) / The Mu-kōan : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu_(negative)#The_Mu-k%C5%8Dan ] > > Of course I could not be using specialised note > > taking program. Instead, I went with Emacs and org-mode. In the > > process I had to learn a bit of Elisp and dot-emacs file. Some > > defaults in Emacs are not comfy for my eyes - fonts, colors, it had to > > be fine tuned to my liking. > > > > Note that Emacs is probably the oldest import into the Unix ecosystem from > outside, and it bears the marks of its origin: monolithic (but > programmable), one tool does it all. Well, when "everything" was small enough I really liked it. Nowadays there seems to be a trend of making Emacs into another OS, like with abomination we call the browser. https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/EmacsApplicationFramework As long as I am able to trim it during compilation, they may put whatever they want inside, but when I tried to unpack one of the latest browser source code, it took more than 2.5 gigabytes (I am not sure, it could have been a nightmare). I hope they will not apply this crazyness to Emacs. I hope Emacs version 23 will keep compiling for a while. [...] > Without doubt. I am not loyal to a kernel or a set of utilities, I simply > follow the Way of Unix: (sadly > incomplete) Oh. I think you just need to bath in Tao, sink deep and breathe it in. After that, words will form themselves out of the void and fall right into the void opened with editor, all without any effort on your side. -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola@bigfoot.com **