From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 5778 invoked from network); 11 Jul 2021 08:54:59 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 11 Jul 2021 08:54:59 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 7A71E94551; Sun, 11 Jul 2021 18:54:54 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 132F993D74; Sun, 11 Jul 2021 18:53:51 +1000 (AEST) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id EB37193D74; Sun, 11 Jul 2021 18:53:48 +1000 (AEST) Received: from relay05.pair.com (relay05.pair.com [216.92.24.67]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D790193D3C for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2021 18:53:47 +1000 (AEST) Received: from orac.inputplus.co.uk (unknown [84.51.128.33]) by relay05.pair.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B94171A2978 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2021 04:53:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from orac.inputplus.co.uk (orac.inputplus.co.uk [IPv6:::1]) by orac.inputplus.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1951E21F16 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2021 09:53:46 +0100 (BST) To: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list From: Ralph Corderoy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-reply-to: <202107101657.16AGvIHu2818628@darkstar.fourwinds.com> References: <06737C14-1122-4832-BCAA-A37B242F69E4@me.com> <202107071828.167ISgdN2686558@darkstar.fourwinds.com> <20210710115135.22FDC21C4E@orac.inputplus.co.uk> <20210710141217.8795F21CD1@orac.inputplus.co.uk> <202107101657.16AGvIHu2818628@darkstar.fourwinds.com> Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2021 09:53:46 +0100 Message-Id: <20210711085346.1951E21F16@orac.inputplus.co.uk> Subject: Re: [TUHS] Death by bug X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" Hi Jon, > So while I agree with your example, I guess that I was contemplating > the sort of example that makes the public take notice. Arguments > about statistical models are lost on 99% of the population. True. I don't know of any but if I had to pick an area where they might be occurring it would be medical devices. I've been an external reviewer of a company's embedded C code for a medical device in the past, bare-metal, simple pre-emptive round-robin task-switcher, etc., though my suggestion is nothing to do with their quality of work or products, just that the level of detail they went to shows how slacker companies could err. The Therac-25 gave fatal radiation doses in a few cases. These were obvious when they occurred. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therac-25 What if a medical device which sits in the background quietly doing its continuous, but sometimes vital, thing had the occasional hiccough from which it recovered? If the blip is only fatal in patients which were already touch and go and device fault left no obvious sign to suggest death wasn't caused by the initial ailment then the cause of death would be, quite reasonably, assumed. Given some devices are present in large numbers for many years in hospitals, and there's a lot of hospitals, an unnoticed bug could be steadily chipping away at its human overlords. -- Cheers, Ralph.