From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 21973 invoked from network); 11 Jul 2021 16:12:55 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 11 Jul 2021 16:12:55 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 510F693DA1; Mon, 12 Jul 2021 02:12:50 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E065E93D74; Mon, 12 Jul 2021 02:12:14 +1000 (AEST) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 3062893D7A; Mon, 12 Jul 2021 02:11:02 +1000 (AEST) Received: from fourwinds.com (fourwinds.com [63.64.179.162]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B329393D74 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2021 02:11:00 +1000 (AEST) Received: from darkstar.fourwinds.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fourwinds.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 16BGAwkE2851408 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2021 09:10:58 -0700 Received: from darkstar.fourwinds.com (jon@localhost) by darkstar.fourwinds.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id 16BGAv5u2851405 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2021 09:10:58 -0700 Message-Id: <202107111610.16BGAv5u2851405@darkstar.fourwinds.com> From: Jon Steinhart To: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org In-reply-to: <20210711085346.1951E21F16@orac.inputplus.co.uk> References: <06737C14-1122-4832-BCAA-A37B242F69E4@me.com> <202107071828.167ISgdN2686558@darkstar.fourwinds.com> <20210710115135.22FDC21C4E@orac.inputplus.co.uk> <20210710141217.8795F21CD1@orac.inputplus.co.uk> <202107101657.16AGvIHu2818628@darkstar.fourwinds.com> <20210711085346.1951E21F16@orac.inputplus.co.uk> Comments: In-reply-to Ralph Corderoy message dated "Sun, 11 Jul 2021 09:53:46 +0100." MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <2851323.1626019802.1@darkstar.fourwinds.com> Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2021 09:10:57 -0700 X-JON-SPAM: local delivery Subject: Re: [TUHS] Death by bug X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" Ralph Corderoy writes: > Hi Jon, > > > So while I agree with your example, I guess that I was contemplating > > the sort of example that makes the public take notice. Arguments > > about statistical models are lost on 99% of the population. > > True. > > I don't know of any but if I had to pick an area where they might be > occurring it would be medical devices. I've been an external reviewer > of a company's embedded C code for a medical device in the past, > bare-metal, simple pre-emptive round-robin task-switcher, etc., though > my suggestion is nothing to do with their quality of work or products, > just that the level of detail they went to shows how slacker companies > could err. > > The Therac-25 gave fatal radiation doses in a few cases. These were > obvious when they occurred. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therac-25 > > What if a medical device which sits in the background quietly doing its > continuous, but sometimes vital, thing had the occasional hiccough from > which it recovered? If the blip is only fatal in patients which were > already touch and go and device fault left no obvious sign to suggest > death wasn't caused by the initial ailment then the cause of death would > be, quite reasonably, assumed. > > Given some devices are present in large numbers for many years in > hospitals, and there's a lot of hospitals, an unnoticed bug could be > steadily chipping away at its human overlords. > > -- > Cheers, Ralph. Well, we agree once again. I have done a lot of work on medical devices, and was surprised at the lack of diligence on the part of some of the people with whom I worked. But your example is similar to the way that people have trouble with COVID - there's too much of a lag between exposure and symptoms for many folks to make the connection. So I'm kind of wondering what sort of bug may blow up a refinery or chemical plant and cause enough loss of life and damage to make people take notice. Jon