From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 7870 invoked from network); 6 Aug 2021 23:41:51 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 6 Aug 2021 23:41:51 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 0FDE59CAF1; Sat, 7 Aug 2021 09:41:49 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1DBE9C9E8; Sat, 7 Aug 2021 09:41:18 +1000 (AEST) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id EEC679C9E8; Sat, 7 Aug 2021 09:41:15 +1000 (AEST) X-Greylist: delayed 441 seconds by postgrey-1.36 at minnie.tuhs.org; Sat, 07 Aug 2021 09:41:15 AEST Received: from boogeyman.hockeyphil.net (static-47-180-28-65.lsan.ca.frontiernet.net [47.180.28.65]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 634329C9E0 for ; Sat, 7 Aug 2021 09:41:15 +1000 (AEST) Received: (qmail 1778582 invoked by uid 713); 6 Aug 2021 23:33:53 -0000 Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2021 16:33:53 -0700 From: Phil White To: Rob Pike Message-ID: <20210806233353.GZ2781665@boogeyman.armory.com> References: <-AmqyEPDFGA7JKlNEOgAqahmsc7dqEexT1kaQbALEzVtMU9DkZiBCg9p4ikYcJwHGsYprzFx13yPLlbW3PL0lHGBWFcDFp2dcleM7B20wcc=@jfloren.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [TUHS] Depraz/Logitech Digimouse manual X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" I'm a little embarrassed to ask, but my curiosity demands I ask. Who is that in the framed photograph near the ceiling and between the "Protect Your Password" and "UNIX International Member" posters? -Phil On Sat, Aug 07, 2021 at 07:53:48AM +1000, Rob Pike wrote: > I sent a picture (actually two at different resolutions; keep reading) to > the list, but being images they are larger than the address space of a > PDP-11 so not allowed here. > > Is it really necessary to have such a low message size limit in an era when > I can buy a terabyte of storage for less than a hundred bucks? > > Here is a Google Drive link, for the adventurous. > > > 20180123-UnixSkeleton.jpg > > > > -rob > > > On Sat, Aug 7, 2021 at 7:44 AM Rob Pike wrote: > > > I sent a higher-res version in which you can read all the text but it was > > "moderated". > > > > This is the Unix room as of the year 2000 or so. > > > > -rob > > > > > > On Sat, Aug 7, 2021 at 4:34 AM ron minnich wrote: > > > >> The story of the mice, one of which I gave to John: > >> > >> I ran a program called FAST-OS for LANL/Sandia for 6 years starting > >> 2005. Think of it as "Plan 9 on petaflop supercomputers" -- it may > >> seem strange now, but in that era when some top end systems ran custom > >> kernels, there was a strong case to be made that plan 9 was a good > >> choice. By 2011, of course, the Linux tsunami had swept all before it, > >> which is why you no longer hear about custom HPC kernels so much -- > >> though in some places they still reign. In any event, this program > >> gave me 6 years to work with "the Unix room", or what was left of it. > >> I had been in the Unix Room in 1978, and even met Dennis, so this > >> prospect was quite a treat. > >> > >> We funded Charles Forsyth to write the amd64 compilers for Plan 9, > >> which if you used early Go you ran into (6c 6a 6l); we also funded the > >> amd64 port of Plan 9 (a.k.a. k10) as well as the port to Blue Gene. > >> That amd64 port is still out and about. You can find the Blue Gene > >> kernel on github. > >> > >> I had lots of fun spending time in the Unix room while working with > >> the late Jim McKie, and others. I saw the tail end of the traditions. > >> They had cookie day once a week, if memory serves, on Thursday at 3. I > >> got to see the backwards-running clock, Ken's chess trophies, his > >> pilot's license, pictures of Peter everywhere, a "Reagan's view of the > >> world" map, the American Legion award for Telstar (which was rescued > >> from a dumpster!), and so on. The "Unix room" was more than one room, > >> all built on a raised floor, as I assume it was former old school > >> machine room space. If memory serves, it filled the entire width of > >> the end of the top floor of the building it was in (4th floor?) -- > >> maybe 50 ft x 50 ft -- maybe a bit more. There was a room with desks, > >> and a similar-sized room with servers, and a smaller room containing a > >> lab-style sink, a very professional cappucinno machine, decades of old > >> proceedings, and a sofa. I fixed the heavy-duty coffee grinder one > >> year; for some reason the Italian company that produced it had seen > >> fit to switch BOTH hot and neutral, and the fix was to only switch > >> hot, as the neutral switch had failed; I guess in the EU, with 220v, > >> things are done differently. > >> > >> It was fun being there. A few years later the whole room, and all its > >> history, was trashed, and replaced with what Jim called a "middle > >> management wxx dream" (Jim was never at a loss for words); Jim found > >> some yellow Police crime scene tape and placed it in front of the > >> doors to the new space. It was redubbed "the innovation space" or some > >> such, and looked kind of like an ikea showroom. Much was lost. I tried > >> to find a way to save the contents of the room; I had this dream of > >> recreating it at Google, much as John Wanamaker's office was preserved > >> in Philadelphia for so many decades, but I was too late. I have no > >> idea where the contents are now. Maybe next to the Ark. > >> > >> One day in 2008 or so jmk took me for a tour of the buildings, and we > >> at one point ended up high in the top floor of what I think was > >> Building One (since torn down?), in what used to be Lab Supply. Nobody > >> was there, and not much supply was there either. Finally somebody > >> wandered in, and Jim asked where everyone was. "Oh, they closed lab > >> supply, maybe 4 years ago?" > >> > >> Bell Labs had seen hard times since the Lucent split, and it was clear > >> it had not quite recovered, and Lab Supply was just one sign of it. I > >> think the saddest thing was seeing the visitor center, which I first > >> saw in 1976. In 1976, it was the seat of the Bell System Empire, and > >> it was huge. There was a map of the US with a light lit for every > >> switching office in the Bell Labs system. There was all kinds of Bell > >> Labs history in the visitor center museum. > >> > >> The museum had shrunk to a much smaller area, and felt like a closet. > >> The original transistor was still there in 2010, but little else.The > >> library was, similarly, changed: it was dark and empty, I was told. > >> Money was saved. At that time, Bell Labs felt large, strangely quiet, > >> and emptied of people. It made me think of post-sack Rome, ca. 600, > >> when its population was estimated to be 500. I have not been back > >> since 2011 so maybe things are very different. It would be nice if so. > >> > >> As part of this tour, Jim gave me 3 depraz mice. I took one, gutted > >> it, (sorry!), and filled its guts with a USB mouse innards, and gave > >> it back to Jim. He then had a Depraz USB mouse. jmk's mouse did not > >> have any lead in it, as John's did, however. The second I gave to > >> someone at Google who had worked at the labs back in the day. The > >> third mouse I gave to John, and he made it live again, which is cool. > >> > >> In spite of their reputation, I found Depraz mice hard to use. I have > >> gone through all kinds of mice, and am on an evoluent, and as far as > >> Depraz go, I guess "you had to be there". I don't recall if jmk used > >> his "usb depraz" or it ended up on a shelf. Sadly, I can no longer ask > >> him. > >> > >> I'll be interested to see what John thinks of the Depraz. > >> > >> ron > >> > >> On Fri, Aug 6, 2021 at 9:52 AM John Floren wrote: > >> > > >> > Ah, right. I opened the mouse because one of the encoders didn't seem > >> to be working (it worked fine again this morning, who knows...) and > >> discovered that there was something duct taped inside the plastic shell: > >> > > >> > http://jfloren.net/content/depraz/inside.jpg > >> > > >> > Peeling back the tape, I saw what I first took to be chunks of > >> flattened beer cans: > >> > > >> > http://jfloren.net/content/depraz/reveal.jpg > >> > > >> > A closer look showed that they were the wrappers which cover the corks > >> of wine bottles. Up into the 1980s, these were made out of lead, and by > >> flattening five of them, a previous owner of the mouse was able to add > >> quite a bit of extra weight to it: > >> > > >> > http://jfloren.net/content/depraz/wrapper.jpg > >> > > >> > > >> > john > >> > > >> > ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ > >> > > >> > On Friday, August 6th, 2021 at 9:34 AM, ron minnich > >> wrote: > >> > > >> > > john, don't forget to mention the beer can > >> > > > >> > > On Fri, Aug 6, 2021 at 9:29 AM John Floren john@jfloren.net wrote: > >> > > > >> > > > I stuck an Arduino on it and with surprisingly little code I have > >> it acting like a 3-button USB mouse. > >> > > > > >> > > > The only problem is that the pointer doesn't move smoothly. It does > >> OK left-to-right, and can move down pretty well, but going up is a problem. > >> I think pushing the mouse forward tends to move the ball away from the > >> Y-axis wheel, and the old spring on the tensioner just doesn't have the > >> gumption to hold that heavy ball bearing in any more. > >> > > > > >> > > > john > >> > > > > >> > > > ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ > >> > > > > >> > > > On Wednesday, August 4th, 2021 at 9:12 PM, ron minnich > >> rminnich@gmail.com wrote: > >> > > > > >> > > > > John, you can see that "stick a bird on it" -> "stick an arduino > >> on > >> > > > > > >> > > > > it" -> "stick a pi on it" has gone as you once predicted :-) > >> > > > > > >> > > > > On Wed, Aug 4, 2021 at 8:59 PM John Floren john@jfloren.net > >> wrote: > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > On Wednesday, August 4th, 2021 at 6:12 PM, Henry Bent > >> henry.r.bent@gmail.com wrote: > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > On Wed, 4 Aug 2021 at 20:52, John Floren john@jfloren.net > >> wrote: > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Having just been given a Depraz mouse, I thought it would > >> be fun to get it working on my modern computer. Since the DE9 connector is > >> male rather than female as you usually see with serial mice, and given its > >> age, I speculate that it might have a custom protocol; in any rate, > >> plugging it into a USB-serial converter and and firing up picocom has given > >> me nothing. > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Does anyone have a copy of a manual for it, or more > >> information on how to interface with it? If I knew how it was wired and > >> what the protocol looked like, I expect I could make an adapter pretty > >> trivially using a microcontroller. > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > This might be of some help? > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> https://www.vcfed.org/forum/forum/technical-support/vintage-computer-hardware/74403-whitechapel-mg-1-depraz-mouse-grey-pinout#post904391 > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > -Henry > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > This looks great, thank you! > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > john > >> > >