From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 12108 invoked from network); 3 Sep 2021 17:46:39 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 3 Sep 2021 17:46:39 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 243D09C8A4; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 03:46:36 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B1099C870; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 03:46:20 +1000 (AEST) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 213409C870; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 03:46:19 +1000 (AEST) Received: from darkstar.fourwinds.com (fourwinds.com [63.64.179.162]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 63F169BA1E for ; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 03:46:18 +1000 (AEST) Received: from darkstar.fourwinds.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkstar.fourwinds.com (8.16.1/8.15.2) with ESMTP id 183HkHiw3857574 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 10:46:17 -0700 Received: from darkstar.fourwinds.com (jon@localhost) by darkstar.fourwinds.com (8.16.1/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id 183HkHDL3857571 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 10:46:17 -0700 Message-Id: <202109031746.183HkHDL3857571@darkstar.fourwinds.com> From: Jon Steinhart To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society In-reply-to: References: Comments: In-reply-to Adam Thornton message dated "Fri, 03 Sep 2021 10:10:57 -0700." MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <3857569.1630691177.1@darkstar.fourwinds.com> Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2021 10:46:17 -0700 X-JON-SPAM: local delivery Subject: Re: [TUHS] ATC/OSDI'21 joint keynote: It's Time for Operating Systems to Rediscover Hardware [ really a comment on SoCs ] X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" Adam Thornton writes: > > 2) a modern CPU? Let alone SoC? Fuggedaboutit unless you're way, way Don't know how many of you are hardware/software folks as opposed to just software, but it turns out that SoCs are not immune to the problems that result from bolting disparate stuff together in the software world. A few years ago I was working on a project that included an Atmel SoC. Was having some weirdness, and contacted Atmel to ask them about timing issues between two of the DMA controllers that was unspecified in their documentation but critical to making the project work. Their initial response was "Well, we don't know, that's IP that we bought from ARM, call them and ask." I replied "I don't think that they're gonna talk to me because I'm not the one that bought that IP; you did and it's your job." Fortunately, at that time I knew someone who could escalate the issue for me, and only two months later got the timing numbers that I needed. One could be understandably think that more attention is given to bolting IP blocks together on an SoC than is given when bolting a thousand libraries onto a simple program but that turns out to not be true. Software folks need to be prepared for the fact that there may actually be nobody who knows how portions of the hardware actually work because it's not all designed at one place anymore. We have to be prepared for the SoC version of node.js. Jon