From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 3843 invoked from network); 17 Sep 2021 01:10:46 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 17 Sep 2021 01:10:46 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 8C98D9CACE; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 11:10:43 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C64A79CAB4; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 11:10:16 +1000 (AEST) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 18E6C9CAB3; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 11:10:14 +1000 (AEST) Received: from darkstar.fourwinds.com (fourwinds.com [63.64.179.162]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 80A469CAB2 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 11:10:13 +1000 (AEST) Received: from darkstar.fourwinds.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkstar.fourwinds.com (8.16.1/8.15.2) with ESMTP id 18H1AB8e3319810 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 18:10:11 -0700 Received: from darkstar.fourwinds.com (jon@localhost) by darkstar.fourwinds.com (8.16.1/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id 18H1ABL63319807 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 18:10:11 -0700 Message-Id: <202109170110.18H1ABL63319807@darkstar.fourwinds.com> From: Jon Steinhart To: TUHS main list In-reply-to: <58BCBB10-A303-41C0-8620-992B107786BB@pobox.com> References: <202109161934.18GJYFsl881498@darkstar.fourwinds.com> <20210916194103.GK26820@mcvoy.com> <58BCBB10-A303-41C0-8620-992B107786BB@pobox.com> Comments: In-reply-to David Arnold message dated "Fri, 17 Sep 2021 09:54:26 +1000." MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-ID: <3319805.1631841011.1@darkstar.fourwinds.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 18:10:11 -0700 X-JON-SPAM: local delivery Subject: Re: [TUHS] ATC/OSDI'21 joint keynote: It's Time for Operating Systems to Rediscover Hardware (Timothy Roscoe) X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" David Arnold writes: > And it’s not just those applications: to have your new OS be useful, > you need to support a dozen languages, a hundred protocols, thousands of > libraries … a vast range of stuff that would take years, perhaps decades, > to port over or reinvent in your new paradigm. > > The idea that you’d turn your back on the accumulated value of 50 years > of countless people’s work because your set of system calls is slightly > better than the one you’ve got now … that’s a very, very big call. > > So I think the notion that “the kids” are less willing to understand, > or to drill deep, is doing them a disservice. They do understand, and > they (mostly) make the choice to leverage that body of work rather than > embark on the futility of starting afresh. I have to respectfully disagree which is a challenge because being disagreeable comes more naturally than being respectful :-) We already have this. I kind of wonder what actual value could have been created with the resources that went into supporting the dozen languages, hundred protocols, and so on. Is there value to me that a library exists that lets me to something in python that is identical to the library that lets me do that same thing in perl or the one that lets me do it in php or the one that lets me do it in ...? No. You made a big assumption that I was suggesting tossing prior work and API specs which I wasn't. Would you have wanted to have the 32 bit system call API frozen because it worked and not wanted 64 bit versions? History shows plenty of good work going into compatibility when the underlying technology evolves. Don't know how much time you spend with "the kids" these days. I make it a point to do so when I can; SIGCOVID has cut into that unfortunately. One can get a CS degree without ever taking an OS course at many respectable institutions. Many are not so much making a choice as doing what they can which is inadequate in my opinion. Was discussing this with someone the other day. I'm glad that I have an engineering degree instead of a computer science degree. And I'm also glad that I prevailed with one of my mentees to double major in EE and CS when he wanted to bail on the EE. While it's a generalization, as an engineeer I was educated on how the universe worked - chemistry, physics, and so on. It was up to me to figure out how to apply that knowledge - I wasn't taught how to lay out a circuit board or to use a CAD package or to write an app. A modern CS degree at many institutions is vocational training in programming. It's not the same thing. Jon