From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 26508 invoked from network); 17 Sep 2021 17:52:09 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 17 Sep 2021 17:52:09 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id CEE789CABB; Sat, 18 Sep 2021 03:52:06 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 099589CAB3; Sat, 18 Sep 2021 03:51:43 +1000 (AEST) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 3B5799CAB3; Sat, 18 Sep 2021 03:51:40 +1000 (AEST) Received: from darkstar.fourwinds.com (fourwinds.com [63.64.179.162]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C88179CAB2 for ; Sat, 18 Sep 2021 03:51:39 +1000 (AEST) Received: from darkstar.fourwinds.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkstar.fourwinds.com (8.16.1/8.15.2) with ESMTP id 18HHpdMV3401329 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 10:51:39 -0700 Received: from darkstar.fourwinds.com (jon@localhost) by darkstar.fourwinds.com (8.16.1/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id 18HHpcAf3401326 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 10:51:38 -0700 Message-Id: <202109171751.18HHpcAf3401326@darkstar.fourwinds.com> From: Jon Steinhart To: TUHS main list In-reply-to: References: <202109161934.18GJYFsl881498@darkstar.fourwinds.com> <20210916194103.GK26820@mcvoy.com> <58BCBB10-A303-41C0-8620-992B107786BB@pobox.com> Comments: In-reply-to Bakul Shah message dated "Fri, 17 Sep 2021 10:39:52 -0700." MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <3401324.1631901098.1@darkstar.fourwinds.com> Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 10:51:38 -0700 X-JON-SPAM: local delivery Subject: Re: [TUHS] ATC/OSDI'21 joint keynote: It's Time for Operating Systems to Rediscover Hardware (Timothy Roscoe) X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" Bakul Shah writes: > I have mixed feelings about this. Unix didn't "throw away" > the mainframe world of computing. It simply created a new > ecosystem, more suited for the microprocessor age. For IBM it > was perhaps the classic Innovator's Dilemma. Similarly now we > have (mostly) the Linux ecosystem, while the actual hardware > has diverged a lot from the C memory model. There are > security issues. There is firmware running on these system > about which the OS knows nothing. We have processors like > Esperanto Tech's 1088 64 bit Risc-V cores, each with its own > vector/tensor unit, 160MB onchip sram and 23.8B transistors > but can take only limited advantage of it. We have super > performant GPUs but programming them is vendor dependent and > a pain. If someone can see a clear path through all this, > and create a new software system, they will simply generate a > new ecosystem and not worry about 50 years worth of work. You're kind of reminding me of the HEP (heterogeneous element processor) talk that I saw at I think Usenix in Santa Monica. My opinion is that it was a "kitchen sink" project - let's throw in a few of these and a few of those and so on. Also analogous to what I saw in the housing market up here when people started cashing in their California huts for Oregon mansions - when we lived in California we could afford two columns out front but now we can afford 6 columns, 8 poticos, 6 dormers, 4 turrets, and so on. Just because you can built it doesn't keep it from being an ugly mess. So my question on many of these processors is, has anybody given any thought to system architecture? Most likely all of us have had to suffer with some piece of spiffy hardware that was pretty much unprogrammable. Do the performance numbers mean anything if they can't be achieved in an actual system configuration? Jon