From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 18782 invoked from network); 1 Jan 2022 01:03:07 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 1 Jan 2022 01:03:07 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id D15FA9D026; Sat, 1 Jan 2022 11:03:05 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4B0D9CF51; Sat, 1 Jan 2022 11:02:31 +1000 (AEST) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id EC0CB9CF06; Sat, 1 Jan 2022 11:02:26 +1000 (AEST) X-Greylist: delayed 380 seconds by postgrey-1.36 at minnie.tuhs.org; Sat, 01 Jan 2022 11:02:26 AEST Received: from lax.lemis.com (www.lemis.com [45.32.70.18]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BAD89CF06 for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2022 11:02:26 +1000 (AEST) Received: from eureka.lemis.com (121-200-11-253.79c80b.mel.nbn.aussiebb.net [121.200.11.253]) by lax.lemis.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C24D28105; Sat, 1 Jan 2022 00:56:06 +0000 (UTC) Received: by eureka.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 6D7622635BF; Sat, 1 Jan 2022 11:56:05 +1100 (AEDT) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2022 11:56:05 +1100 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Larry McVoy Message-ID: <20220101005605.GL75481@eureka.lemis.com> References: <20211231234039.GU31637@mcvoy.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="8nsIa27JVQLqB7/C" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20211231234039.GU31637@mcvoy.com> Organization: LEMIS, 29 Stones Road, Dereel, VIC, Australia Phone: +61-3-5309-0418 Mobile: +61-490-494-038. Use only as instructed. WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 User-Agent: Mutt/1.6.1 (2016-04-27) Subject: [TUHS] TeX and groff (was: roff(7)) X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: TUHS main list , Douglas McIlroy Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --8nsIa27JVQLqB7/C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Friday, 31 December 2021 at 15:40:39 -0800, Larry McVoy wrote: > On Sat, Jan 01, 2022 at 09:07:49AM +1000, George Michaelson wrote: >> But macros aside, anyone who had used runoff had a >> massively simpler path into roff than TeX. My future was set. The phd >> students at Leeds looked down their noses at me for using cryptic .2 let= ter >> inline magic. They were the high priests of things, I was just a computer >> operator. Watching them spend weeks and weeks wrangling a one em offset >> problem stopping perfection in print was.. entertaining. > > I was program committee chair for Linux Expo in 1999 (all that means is > I formatted the proceedings into a book). I let people use LaTex but > encouraged troff. A few people tried out troff and their reaction was > "Wow, that was so easy and groff is really fast!" Heh. I had a similar experience when writing "Porting Unix Software" (1995). O'Reilly insisted on using groff with their macro set, and I had only had experience with (La)TeX. I fought for quite some time, but ultimately gave in. Despite Baby Duck Syndrome, I discovered that I far preferred groff to TeX, and I've been using it ever since. =46rom PUS: .Pe More than anywhere else in porting, it is good for your state of mind to= steer clear of .TXI \& internals. The assumptions on which the syntax is based differ markedly= from those of other programming languages. For example, identifiers may not = contain digits, and spaces are required only when the meaning would otherwise be ambiguous (to .TXI , not to you), so the sequence \s10\f(CWfontsize300\fR\s0 is in fact the identifier \s10\f(CWfontsize\fR\s0 followed by the number \s10\f(CW300\f= R\s0. On the other hand, it is almost impossible to find any good solid inform= ation in the documentation, so you could spend hours trying to solve a minor prob= lem. I have been using .TXI \& frequently for years, and I still find it the most frustrating program I= have ever seen.\** .FS When I wrote this sentence, I wondered if I wasn't overstating the case.= Mike Loukides, the author of \fIProgramming with GNU Software\fR, reviewed th= e final draft and added a single word: \fIAmen\fR. .FE > The only negative reaction was table of contents complaints, LaTex is > 2 pass so it can do them, roff is one pass so you have to fiddle with > things. A lot. I solved that issue in later documents with two passes in the Makefile targets, frobbing things like references and contents in between. Greg -- Sent from my desktop computer. Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key. See complete headers for address and phone numbers. This message is digitally signed. If your Microsoft mail program reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA.php --8nsIa27JVQLqB7/C Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iEYEARECAAYFAmHPpqUACgkQIubykFB6QiNfoACeIGUMm2h4BkWwRGNnuyerLpXo 4SkAnAibNm9Tn15BGg50E9a3TU3rDpFN =kcXK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --8nsIa27JVQLqB7/C--