From: Steffen Nurpmeso <email@example.com> To: Blake McBride <firstname.lastname@example.org> Cc: TUHS main list <email@example.com>, Douglas McIlroy <firstname.lastname@example.org> Subject: Re: [TUHS] TeX and groff (was: roff(7)) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 21:46:12 +0100 [thread overview] Message-ID: <email@example.com> (raw) In-Reply-To: <CABwHSOuMxgEJnNUczbcGhA_939q_XfwCLyqacaGpz3+AjdSqSQ@mail.gmail.com> Blake McBride wrote in <CABwHSOuMxgEJnNUczbcGhA_939q_XfwCLyqacaGpz3+AjdSqSQ@mail.gmail.com>: |I've used nroff/troff/TeX with many of their various macro packages over |about a 35 years span. During that time, I've done many single-page |documents as well as documents as long as 350 pages. I also modified a |version of nroff to create business forms for Laster printers. This is |still being used commercially. This is one person's opinion: | |1. Perhaps owing to my limited intelligence, and in spite of the fact that |I've used TeX successfully on many documents, I have never been able to |fully understand TeX. Apparently, it is too much for me. Troff, on the |other hand, has made full sense to me. I was able to make it do what I |wanted almost always. I enjoy using troff more because I find it simpler, |and therefore, more pleasant to use. | |2. Looking at the output, it is my opinion that TeX produces |better-looking documents. Perhaps this is just no more than one man's |esthetic opinion. I do not know what it is that I find better. It's just |the sense I get. On the other hand, I find troff output to be sufficiently |good in nearly all cases. Note that heirloom doctools (on github) is a SysV-derived *roff codebase which has been extended to use TeX paragraph algorithm, font kerning, true type fonts, etc. You need to explicitly code your macros to use these features. |3. troff is a good and reasonable tool. TeX is too big and complex an |environment in most cases. Although it is true that all of the complexity |of the TeX environment is successfully hidden in virtually all cases. I |find the huge and complex environment offputting. That is overly not true. You can start off with nothing but what TeX loads by default, plus epsf.tex and maybe colordvi.tex for some use cases and you have everything you need. I have never used it, but there is kertex and i am tracking it since, eh, July 2012. It is maintained. It is just the bare core, but includes more than i ever needed #?0|kent:kertex.tar_bomb_git$ git loca|wc -l 20 #?0|kent:kertex.tar_bomb_git$ du -sh . 13M . |Very unfortunately, I see troff disappearing. I've worked with a number of |teams over the last ten years. In every case, I was the oldest engineer. |Also, in each case, I was the only engineer who had even heard of troff. |They understand the problems of binary formats such as Word and |OpenOffice. Their solutions are things like markdown, AsciiDoc, et al. |They are doing this development and making use of these tools without |knowledge of troff. The same is true to a greater or lesser degree with |TeX, except that I've seen TeX used at universities. | |I like that groff and TeX are rock solid and well supported. In fact, I |wrote a report generator for a modern web development framework using |troff. I use it to develop reports on a routine basis. (kissweb.org) |Sadly, however, if word of their existence doesn't get out there, I see |them both disappearing in not much longer than a generation. This would be |sad indeed. Gee, the current hip top of the pops is to not even include generated documentation in release tarballs no more! Heck, i even know a project that took a year-long-not-modified manual page and converted it into some so-called text format. It thus needs a software which happily announces itself as "ronn: the opposite of roff", yieha! I mean ruby ok, there are some such tools which require Haskell, which in turn requires a binary runtime package (or a huuuuge source ball). No no, really not. I mean really. You develop it, you decide it is time for a release, you do test the convertability do you, why not include the 10 kilobytes for your is-anyway-almost-a-stub manual?? In fact these balls nowadays include .github subirectories for github workflows, which is much larger than the manual. Sigh. --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt)
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2022-01-10 20:46 UTC|newest] Thread overview: 112+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top 2021-12-31 15:47 [TUHS] roff(7) Douglas McIlroy 2021-12-31 23:07 ` George Michaelson 2021-12-31 23:40 ` Larry McVoy 2022-01-01 0:56 ` [TUHS] TeX and groff (was: roff(7)) Greg 'groggy' Lehey 2022-01-01 3:15 ` Larry McVoy 2022-01-10 19:00 ` Blake McBride 2022-01-10 20:21 ` Jon Forrest 2022-01-11 22:48 ` Blake McBride 2022-01-11 23:18 ` Larry McVoy 2022-01-12 1:19 ` Dave Horsfall 2022-01-12 1:46 ` Blake McBride 2022-01-12 2:12 ` Bakul Shah 2022-01-12 15:49 ` Larry McVoy 2022-01-12 16:22 ` Adam Thornton 2022-01-12 0:06 ` Jon Steinhart 2022-01-12 1:48 ` Blake McBride 2022-01-12 0:29 ` Nemo Nusquam 2022-01-12 1:53 ` Blake McBride [not found] ` <E3CC4B8A-4E88-4339-A4D3-4ED26BA80620@gmail.com> 2022-01-12 0:44 ` Jon Forrest 2022-01-12 2:00 ` Blake McBride 2022-01-12 2:10 ` David Arnold 2022-01-12 2:26 ` Adam Thornton 2022-01-12 19:54 ` John Cowan 2022-01-13 10:13 ` Thomas Paulsen 2022-01-13 20:00 ` John Cowan 2022-01-10 20:33 ` Larry McVoy 2022-01-10 20:37 ` Richard Salz 2022-01-10 21:04 ` Dan Cross 2022-01-10 21:48 ` Nemo Nusquam 2022-01-11 2:25 ` Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM) 2022-01-11 2:47 ` Larry McVoy 2022-01-22 2:34 ` [TUHS] troff environments, traps, and diversions (was: TeX and groff) Branden Robinson 2022-01-22 16:02 ` Douglas McIlroy 2022-01-23 19:45 ` Jon Steinhart 2022-01-23 22:26 ` Jon Steinhart 2022-01-11 1:52 ` [TUHS] Recognizing TeX (was: TeX and groff (was: roff(7))) Greg 'groggy' Lehey 2022-01-12 1:19 ` [TUHS] TeX and groff (was: roff(7)) Mary Ann Horton 2022-01-12 2:03 ` Blake McBride 2022-01-12 2:10 ` Bakul Shah 2022-01-12 3:44 ` Dan Cross 2022-01-12 16:48 ` Steffen Nurpmeso 2022-01-10 20:46 ` Steffen Nurpmeso [this message] 2022-01-11 1:59 ` [TUHS] Demise of " Greg 'groggy' Lehey 2022-01-11 2:13 ` Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM) 2022-01-11 2:42 ` Larry McVoy 2022-01-11 5:12 ` Greg 'groggy' Lehey 2022-01-11 5:59 ` John Labovitz 2022-01-11 8:57 ` arnold 2022-01-11 20:15 ` Jon Steinhart 2022-01-11 20:22 ` Larry McVoy 2022-01-11 20:26 ` Jon Steinhart 2022-01-11 20:36 ` Larry McVoy 2022-01-11 20:41 ` Jon Steinhart 2022-01-11 20:49 ` Larry McVoy 2022-01-11 21:03 ` Jon Steinhart 2022-01-11 8:50 ` arnold 2022-01-11 14:00 ` Larry McVoy 2022-01-12 23:22 ` [TUHS] troff or groff? (was: Demise of TeX and groff (was: roff(7))) Greg 'groggy' Lehey 2022-01-12 23:29 ` Greg 'groggy' Lehey 2022-01-12 23:32 ` Larry McVoy 2022-01-11 15:47 ` [TUHS] Demise of TeX and groff (was: roff(7)) Clem Cole 2022-01-11 16:55 ` Richard Salz 2022-01-11 18:49 ` Clem Cole 2022-01-11 19:20 ` John Cowan 2022-01-11 20:06 ` Clem Cole 2022-01-11 23:57 ` Warner Losh 2022-01-12 0:03 ` Warner Losh 2022-01-12 8:54 ` arnold 2022-01-12 15:17 ` Clem Cole 2022-01-12 16:33 ` Dan Cross 2022-01-12 18:06 ` [TUHS] *roff history as told to GNU G. Branden Robinson 2022-01-12 18:34 ` Dan Halbert 2022-01-12 22:48 ` Clem Cole 2022-01-12 23:27 ` Charles H. Sauer 2022-01-13 0:35 ` Adam Thornton 2022-01-12 20:01 ` Dan Cross 2022-01-12 22:32 ` Clem Cole 2022-01-13 2:38 ` John Labovitz 2022-01-13 7:42 ` Lars Brinkhoff 2022-01-13 13:47 ` John Labovitz 2022-01-12 8:48 ` [TUHS] Demise of TeX and groff (was: roff(7)) arnold 2022-01-12 15:51 ` Larry McVoy 2022-01-12 15:57 ` Clem Cole 2022-01-12 15:56 ` Clem Cole 2022-01-11 3:22 ` Adam Thornton 2022-01-12 0:32 ` Nemo Nusquam 2022-01-01 20:00 ` [TUHS] roff(7) [ and other related stuff ] Jon Steinhart 2022-01-02 0:12 ` Larry McVoy 2022-01-02 1:04 ` John Cowan 2022-01-02 1:20 ` Larry McVoy 2022-01-02 1:47 ` Steve Nickolas 2022-01-02 2:12 ` Larry McVoy 2022-01-02 3:56 ` Jon Steinhart 2022-01-02 1:48 ` Jon Steinhart 2022-01-02 3:04 ` John Cowan 2022-01-02 3:30 ` Warner Losh 2022-01-01 1:11 ` [TUHS] roff(7) Phil Budne 2022-01-01 1:17 ` Chris Torek 2022-01-01 3:06 ` Larry McVoy 2022-01-01 3:34 ` George Michaelson 2022-01-05 21:15 ` Tony Finch 2022-01-10 21:06 [TUHS] TeX and groff (was: roff(7)) Jon Steinhart 2022-01-11 11:06 ` Ralph Corderoy 2022-01-11 14:52 ` John Cowan 2022-01-10 21:12 Bakul Shah 2022-01-11 13:37 Nelson H. F. Beebe 2022-01-12 2:49 Jon Steinhart 2022-01-12 10:38 ` Ralph Corderoy 2022-01-12 17:53 ` Jon Steinhart 2022-01-12 18:27 ` G. Branden Robinson 2022-01-12 19:02 ` John Cowan 2022-01-13 17:31 Douglas McIlroy
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