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* Re: [TUHS] Old screen editors
@ 2022-03-29 18:35 Noel Chiappa
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 29+ messages in thread
From: Noel Chiappa @ 2022-03-29 18:35 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs; +Cc: jnc

    > From: Angelo Papenhoff

    > By 'upload it' do you mean the full dump or TECO only?

At this point in time, not the full dump (below for why).

I have previously uploaded lots of other bits, e.g. (looks quickly): the
TCP/IP that was written for it (with the TCP in the 'user process', making
for a small system, good for -11/23's and -11/40's); Montgomery EMACS; TECO
(already done - along with the MACRO-11, but I still need to do the linker,
and the BCPL compiler one needs for the linker).

    > That system sounds very interesting and I'd love to see the whole thing.

Unfortunately, the dump includes _everything_ on the system, including
personal email, etc, etc. So I have to curate it anything I upload.

I suppose I should put together an 'index page', which lists (and links
to) everything that has been uploaded?

	Noel

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 29+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Old screen editors
  2022-03-29  0:31       ` [TUHS] Old screen editors Lawrence Stewart
  2022-03-29  0:53         ` Charles H Sauer (he/him)
  2022-03-29 12:45         ` Thomas Paulsen
@ 2022-03-30  8:37         ` Ralph Corderoy
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 29+ messages in thread
From: Ralph Corderoy @ 2022-03-30  8:37 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Lawrence Stewart; +Cc: tuhs

Hi Lawrence,

> At some point we got ex/vi, but before that we got the “Rand Editor”
> re, which was a perfectly functional screen editor, if you squinted a
> bit.
>
> Does anyone here know the place of re in the history?

RAND's re from 1974 had become Ned, for New Editor by 1977 when Ned's
author, Walt Bilofsky, later founder of The Software Toolworks, wrote
RAND report R2176.  https://www.rand.org/pubs/reports/R2176.html

        Over the past few years Ned, a text editor utilizing the full
    capabilities of the CRT display, has been under development and in
    use at The Rand Corporation...

        The Ned editor runs on the PDP-11 series of computers under
    the UNIX operating system.  It uses a CRT display to provide a
    two-dimensional window into a text file...  ...rectangular portions of
    text may be opened, deleted, and moved about...  The set of operations
    may be expanded by user-provided or system-provided text-processing
    programs...  The screen may be divided into several editing windows...

Chapter 3 has the history of IDA-CRD → Yale Editor ‘E’ → RAND
editor ‘re’ → Ned.

-- 
Cheers, Ralph.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 29+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Old screen editors
  2022-03-30  5:41   ` Lars Brinkhoff
@ 2022-03-30  7:50     ` Thomas Paulsen
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 29+ messages in thread
From: Thomas Paulsen @ 2022-03-30  7:50 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Lars Brinkhoff; +Cc: tuhs

> Well, even that is a bit inaccurate.  He implemented emacs by wrapping
> new code around James Gosling's (also licensed as Unipress) EMACS.
its generally very well known that RMS hired a programmer doing that. Himself, he only contributed some elisp code.




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 29+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Old screen editors
  2022-03-29 20:54 ` Ron Natalie
@ 2022-03-30  5:41   ` Lars Brinkhoff
  2022-03-30  7:50     ` Thomas Paulsen
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 29+ messages in thread
From: Lars Brinkhoff @ 2022-03-30  5:41 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ron Natalie; +Cc: tuhs, Noel Chiappa

Ron Natalie wrote:
> Noel Chiappa wrote:
>>Stallman didn't _originate_ the body of stuff that eventually turned
>>into ITS EMACS, although he did take over maintenance of it once it
>>was rolling; and later wrote Gnu Emacs from scratch himself.
>
> Well, even that is a bit inaccurate.  He implemented emacs by wrapping
> new code around James Gosling's (also licensed as Unipress) EMACS.   

Here is GNU Emacs 13 with Gosling code:

https://github.com/larsbrinkhoff/emacs-history/blob/sources/decuslib.com/decus/vax85b/gnuemax/emacs/src/display.c

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 29+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Old screen editors
  2022-03-29 10:39 Noel Chiappa
                   ` (2 preceding siblings ...)
  2022-03-29 15:43 ` Angelo Papenhoff
@ 2022-03-30  5:36 ` Lars Brinkhoff
  3 siblings, 0 replies; 29+ messages in thread
From: Lars Brinkhoff @ 2022-03-30  5:36 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

Noel Chiappa writes:
> historical aside: at one point there was a whole 'Ivory' package for
> ITS TECO which could 'purify' ITS TECO code so that one copy in core
> [actual, real core!] could be shared by multiple processes.

There still is an Ivory package, and it's used by a few EMACS libraries.

> That was used to write an EMACS-like package for the PDP-11 UNIX TECO
> (but much simpler than real EMACS), which we used for quite a while
> before Montgomery EMACS for UNIX showed up.

ObUnix.  Montgomery EMACS now shows up again, thanks to Noel.  I put a
copy here, which also references the origin:

https://github.com/larsbrinkhoff/emacs-history/tree/sources/ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/%7Ejnc/tech/unix/emacs

Montgomery wrote about the history behind his editor:

https://github.com/larsbrinkhoff/emacs-history/blob/sources/docs/Montgomery%20Emacs%20History.txt

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 29+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Old screen editors
  2022-03-29 14:42                     ` Andrew Hume
  2022-03-30  0:59                       ` Mary Ann Horton
@ 2022-03-30  5:11                       ` arnold
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 29+ messages in thread
From: arnold @ 2022-03-30  5:11 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: arnold, andrew; +Cc: tuhs

So the question is, does anyone have a UNIX 4.0 source tape?

Otherwise, I think it probably really is lost in the sands
of time.

Thanks,

Arnold

Andrew Hume <andrew@humeweb.com> wrote:

> alas, no.
> it should have been on some official source tapes, tho.
> it was part of some office automation set of software;
> maybe that was mentioned in the tapes.
>
> i too remember nothing about it. outside of doing it
> because management wanted it, i never optionally used it.
>
> > On Mar 29, 2022, at 7:35 AM, arnold@skeeve.com wrote:
> > 
> > Cool! I bet this was it! It was on a System 4 system.
> > 
> > The commands were entered at the top of the screen. I remember almost
> > nothing else about it.
> > 
> > Is there any chance you still have the source?
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > 
> > Arnold
> > 
> > Andrew Hume <andrew@humeweb.com> wrote:
> > 
> >> se?
> >> 
> >> this may be a consequence for using such a bland name for a screen editor,
> >> but i wrote a screen editor called ’se’ in 1981-83, just after we had moved
> >> from piscataway to murray hill.
> >> 
> >> it was part of an effort to do office automation style products for Unix,
> >> and came in around the time Unix transitioned from System III through
> >> System 4 through the early days of System V.
> >> 
> >> my se was not very good, but i did have denis ritchie as an early tester.
>

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 29+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Old screen editors
  2022-03-29 14:42                     ` Andrew Hume
@ 2022-03-30  0:59                       ` Mary Ann Horton
  2022-03-30  5:11                       ` arnold
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 29+ messages in thread
From: Mary Ann Horton @ 2022-03-30  0:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

se(1) is in my UNIX 5.0 manual, which was the internal version of System 
V release 1. It makes sense that it would be the one Andrew wrote.

My recollection is that se was the result of Not Invented Here. There 
was lots of demand for vi in the internal USG version of UNIX, and it 
was present in exptools, but not the official distribution of UNIX. 
(Lots of demand for emacs, too, also in exptools.) Rather than adopt one 
of them, se was written. I think it appeared about UNIX 4.2.

My UNIX 5.0 manual also has vi(1). Once vi was installed, demand for se 
went away. I'm not sure when it was dropped, but it's not in my SVID.

     Mary Ann

On 3/29/22 07:42, Andrew Hume wrote:
> alas, no.
> it should have been on some official source tapes, tho.
> it was part of some office automation set of software;
> maybe that was mentioned in the tapes.
>
> i too remember nothing about it. outside of doing it
> because management wanted it, i never optionally used it.
>
>> On Mar 29, 2022, at 7:35 AM, arnold@skeeve.com wrote:
>>
>> Cool! I bet this was it! It was on a System 4 system.
>>
>> The commands were entered at the top of the screen. I remember almost
>> nothing else about it.
>>
>> Is there any chance you still have the source?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Arnold
>>
>> Andrew Hume <andrew@humeweb.com> wrote:
>>
>>> se?
>>>
>>> this may be a consequence for using such a bland name for a screen editor,
>>> but i wrote a screen editor called ’se’ in 1981-83, just after we had moved
>>> from piscataway to murray hill.
>>>
>>> it was part of an effort to do office automation style products for Unix,
>>> and came in around the time Unix transitioned from System III through
>>> System 4 through the early days of System V.
>>>
>>> my se was not very good, but i did have denis ritchie as an early tester.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 29+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Old screen editors
  2022-03-29 21:46 ` Ron Natalie
@ 2022-03-30  0:22   ` Tom Lyon via TUHS
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 29+ messages in thread
From: Tom Lyon via TUHS @ 2022-03-30  0:22 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ron Natalie; +Cc: tuhs

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Yes, awful terminals demand different editors.

At Amdahl, we had nothing but 3270s for the mainframe UNIX.
Dan Walsh wrote an editor - "ned" - which allowed full screen editing. It
was actually quite nice, considering. It allowed any "ed" commands in a
command line, but ISPF-like block editing elsewhere.

I wrote the 3270 driver which allowed "almost" full duplex interaction with
UNIX.

On Tue, Mar 29, 2022 at 2:47 PM Ron Natalie <ron@ronnatalie.com> wrote:

> Was it one of the awful Pukin-Elmer terminals.  I hated those things.
>
> Then there was the Rand/Interactive Systems INed.   We were stuck using
> that when I worked for Martin.
>
> I never learned vi.   If there is no EMACS-like thing on the machine,
> then I just use ed (sometimes I can get by with ex/vi in line mode).
>
> The funniest editor story I have is one day I'm working at Martin.
> Having actually heard of UNIX before (let alone having done kernel and
> other work) I was sort of the in house expert.   One day one of my
> coworkers calls out to me:
>
> "What's all this Bell System crud in the editor?"
>
> I'm thinking, well, it's all Bell System crud.   What specifically are
> we talking about.   I walk around to see his terminal and find he has
> been typing 1 repeatedly to the shell prompt invoking our /usr/bin/1
> that said "One Bell System, It Works."
>
> After that I modded the program to say "You're not in the editor,
> Bernie."
>
> It was almost as much fun as putting "You might have mail." in motd.
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> From: "Steve Simon" <steve@quintile.net>
> To: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org
> Sent: 3/29/2022 3:09:52 PM
> Subject: Re: [TUHS] Old screen editors
>
> >
> >I never really used it but i do remember an editor called le on the v7
> interdata/Perkin Elmer i used at Leeds poly.
> >
> >I read electronics and we  all used vi, the computer science people at a
> different campus used le on their Interdata; no idea why.
> >
> >anyone any background on le? ihave not seen sight nor sound of it since.
> >
> >-Steve
> >
>
>

-- 
- Tom

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 29+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Old screen editors
  2022-03-29 19:09 Steve Simon
@ 2022-03-29 21:46 ` Ron Natalie
  2022-03-30  0:22   ` Tom Lyon via TUHS
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 29+ messages in thread
From: Ron Natalie @ 2022-03-29 21:46 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

Was it one of the awful Pukin-Elmer terminals.  I hated those things.

Then there was the Rand/Interactive Systems INed.   We were stuck using 
that when I worked for Martin.

I never learned vi.   If there is no EMACS-like thing on the machine, 
then I just use ed (sometimes I can get by with ex/vi in line mode).

The funniest editor story I have is one day I'm working at Martin.   
Having actually heard of UNIX before (let alone having done kernel and 
other work) I was sort of the in house expert.   One day one of my 
coworkers calls out to me:

"What's all this Bell System crud in the editor?"

I'm thinking, well, it's all Bell System crud.   What specifically are 
we talking about.   I walk around to see his terminal and find he has 
been typing 1 repeatedly to the shell prompt invoking our /usr/bin/1 
that said "One Bell System, It Works."

After that I modded the program to say "You're not in the editor, 
Bernie."

It was almost as much fun as putting "You might have mail." in motd.

------ Original Message ------
From: "Steve Simon" <steve@quintile.net>
To: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org
Sent: 3/29/2022 3:09:52 PM
Subject: Re: [TUHS] Old screen editors

>
>I never really used it but i do remember an editor called le on the v7 interdata/Perkin Elmer i used at Leeds poly.
>
>I read electronics and we  all used vi, the computer science people at a different campus used le on their Interdata; no idea why.
>
>anyone any background on le? ihave not seen sight nor sound of it since.
>
>-Steve
>


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 29+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Old screen editors
  2022-03-29 20:40 Noel Chiappa
  2022-03-29 20:50 ` Phil Budne
@ 2022-03-29 20:54 ` Ron Natalie
  2022-03-30  5:41   ` Lars Brinkhoff
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 29+ messages in thread
From: Ron Natalie @ 2022-03-29 20:54 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Noel Chiappa, tuhs; +Cc: jnc


>
>Stallman didn't _originate_ the body of stuff that eventually turned into ITS
>EMACS, although he did take over maintenance of it once it was rolling; and
>later wrote Gnu Emacs from scratch himself.

Well, even that is a bit inaccurate.  He implemented emacs by wrapping 
new code around James Gosling's (also licensed as Unipress) EMACS.   
After a bit of a protracted argument, he finally wrote his own stuff to 
get the infringing code out.

 >  that I've been using
 > heavily customized Epsilon for decades, which is written completely in EEL
 > dialect of C enhanced with editing primitives like buffers, etc), that's clearly very confused.

I was an Epsilon user as well.

The "self documenting" aspects of EMACS are kind of laughable as well.   I'll start with using backspace for the help key and go from there :)


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 29+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Old screen editors
  2022-03-29 20:40 Noel Chiappa
@ 2022-03-29 20:50 ` Phil Budne
  2022-03-29 20:54 ` Ron Natalie
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 29+ messages in thread
From: Phil Budne @ 2022-03-29 20:50 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs; +Cc: jnc

> Stallman didn't _originate_ the body of stuff that eventually turned into ITS
> EMACS, although he did take over maintenance of it once it was rolling; and
> later wrote Gnu Emacs from scratch himself.

I though early GNU Emacs was based on Gosling Emacs (aka gosmacs).

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 29+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Old screen editors
@ 2022-03-29 20:40 Noel Chiappa
  2022-03-29 20:50 ` Phil Budne
  2022-03-29 20:54 ` Ron Natalie
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 29+ messages in thread
From: Noel Chiappa @ 2022-03-29 20:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs; +Cc: jnc

    > From: Clem Cole

    > Ward had a nice history here:  TecoEditor
    > <http://c2.com/wiki/remodel/?TecoEditor> - worth reading

Yeah, pretty good. A couple of minor points:

"TECO Madness -- a moment of convenience, a lifetime of regret" - I
have seen this attributed to Dave Moon.

"the [ITS] version of TECO was used by Richard Stallman to implement the
original Emacs Editor" - accurate if read _just_ the right way, but incorrect
in the 'naive' reading.

Stallman didn't _originate_ the body of stuff that eventually turned into ITS
EMACS, although he did take over maintenance of it once it was rolling; and
later wrote Gnu Emacs from scratch himself.

The mostly accurate one-line history is the one given in Dan Weinreb's blog
"the original (TECO-based) Emacs was created and designed by Guy L. Steele
Jr. and David Moon. After they had it working, and it had become established
as the standard text editor at the AI lab, Stallman took over its
maintenance", to which Moon added "in all fairness I have to say that
Stallman greatly improved Emacs after he 'liberated' it from Guy and me".
More people were involved than Moon, Steele and Stallman, though; a lot of
people were writing stuff before Stallman took over; and even after that,
others (like Eugene Ciccarelli, a member of the CSR group) helped a lot with
ITS EMACS.

Stallman's EMACS paper ("sEMACS: The Extensible, Customizable,
Self-Documenting Display Editor") contains _many_ statements that are
_demonstrably_ wrong, e.g. "it is simply impossible to implement an extensible
system in [languages like PASCAL or C]" ... "This eliminates most popular
programming languages except LISP, APL and SNOBOL." Given that I've been using
a heavily customized Epsilon for decades, which is written completely in EEL
(a dialect of C enhanced with editing primitives like buffers, etc), that's
clerly very confused.

    Noel

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 29+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Old screen editors
@ 2022-03-29 19:09 Steve Simon
  2022-03-29 21:46 ` Ron Natalie
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 29+ messages in thread
From: Steve Simon @ 2022-03-29 19:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs


I never really used it but i do remember an editor called le on the v7 interdata/Perkin Elmer i used at Leeds poly.

I read electronics and we  all used vi, the computer science people at a different campus used le on their Interdata; no idea why.

anyone any background on le? ihave not seen sight nor sound of it since.

-Steve


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 29+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Old screen editors
  2022-03-29 10:39 Noel Chiappa
  2022-03-29 11:05 ` Rob Pike
  2022-03-29 13:37 ` Clem Cole
@ 2022-03-29 15:43 ` Angelo Papenhoff
  2022-03-30  5:36 ` Lars Brinkhoff
  3 siblings, 0 replies; 29+ messages in thread
From: Angelo Papenhoff @ 2022-03-29 15:43 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On 29/03/22, Noel Chiappa wrote:
> The full dump of the MIT-CSR PWB1 UNIX system which I retrieved has all the
> sources and documentation for that TECO, and the ^R-mode code, etc. If anyone
> is interested in seeing it (or maybe even playing with it, which will need
> the UNIX MACRO-11), let me know, and I'll upload it.

By 'upload it' do you mean the full dump or TECO only? That system
sounds very interesting and I'd love to see the whole thing.

aap

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 29+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Old screen editors
  2022-03-29 14:35                   ` arnold
@ 2022-03-29 14:42                     ` Andrew Hume
  2022-03-30  0:59                       ` Mary Ann Horton
  2022-03-30  5:11                       ` arnold
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 29+ messages in thread
From: Andrew Hume @ 2022-03-29 14:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Aharon Robbins; +Cc: tuhs

alas, no.
it should have been on some official source tapes, tho.
it was part of some office automation set of software;
maybe that was mentioned in the tapes.

i too remember nothing about it. outside of doing it
because management wanted it, i never optionally used it.

> On Mar 29, 2022, at 7:35 AM, arnold@skeeve.com wrote:
> 
> Cool! I bet this was it! It was on a System 4 system.
> 
> The commands were entered at the top of the screen. I remember almost
> nothing else about it.
> 
> Is there any chance you still have the source?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Arnold
> 
> Andrew Hume <andrew@humeweb.com> wrote:
> 
>> se?
>> 
>> this may be a consequence for using such a bland name for a screen editor,
>> but i wrote a screen editor called ’se’ in 1981-83, just after we had moved
>> from piscataway to murray hill.
>> 
>> it was part of an effort to do office automation style products for Unix,
>> and came in around the time Unix transitioned from System III through
>> System 4 through the early days of System V.
>> 
>> my se was not very good, but i did have denis ritchie as an early tester.


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 29+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Old screen editors
  2022-03-29 14:31                 ` Andrew Hume
@ 2022-03-29 14:35                   ` arnold
  2022-03-29 14:42                     ` Andrew Hume
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 29+ messages in thread
From: arnold @ 2022-03-29 14:35 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: clemc, andrew; +Cc: tuhs

Cool! I bet this was it! It was on a System 4 system.

The commands were entered at the top of the screen. I remember almost
nothing else about it.

Is there any chance you still have the source?

Thanks,

Arnold

Andrew Hume <andrew@humeweb.com> wrote:

> se?
>
> this may be a consequence for using such a bland name for a screen editor,
> but i wrote a screen editor called ’se’ in 1981-83, just after we had moved
> from piscataway to murray hill.
>
> it was part of an effort to do office automation style products for Unix,
> and came in around the time Unix transitioned from System III through
> System 4 through the early days of System V.
>
> my se was not very good, but i did have denis ritchie as an early tester.
>
> > On Mar 29, 2022, at 6:45 AM, Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:
> > 
> > Arnold, I agree, I do remember seeing it on what I think was the PWB 4.0 tape.  IMHO: it was before cshell, termcap, vi et al was released inside of the rest of the Bell System and there seemed to be sometimes "SW from BSD be bad/crude" 'tude.  IIRC ber and mmp must have had it running on the Marx's brothers systems in Whippany.  But he had vi, so I personally never used it.
> > 
> > @Mary Ann - this would have been around the time you were in Columbus and starting the terminfo work.  Do you have any memories?
> > 
> > On Tue, Mar 29, 2022 at 5:29 AM <arnold@skeeve.com <mailto:arnold@skeeve.com>> wrote:
> > Did anyone within the Bell System ever use a screen editor called 'se'?
> > (NOT related to the Georgia Tech se editor [se-editor.org <http://se-editor.org/>]).
> > 
> > I used this on a USG UNIX 4.0 system ~ 1982 when I did some contract
> > programming at Southern Bell.  I think it was originally written for
> > the Vax but it had been squeezed to run on a PDP-11/70 also.
> > 
> > I've mentioned this in the past, but it seems to been covered over
> > by the sands of time, and that nobody else ever used it.
> > 
> > Arnold
>

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 29+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Old screen editors
  2022-03-29 13:45               ` Clem Cole
@ 2022-03-29 14:31                 ` Andrew Hume
  2022-03-29 14:35                   ` arnold
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 29+ messages in thread
From: Andrew Hume @ 2022-03-29 14:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Clem Cole; +Cc: tuhs

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1674 bytes --]

se?

this may be a consequence for using such a bland name for a screen editor,
but i wrote a screen editor called ’se’ in 1981-83, just after we had moved
from piscataway to murray hill.

it was part of an effort to do office automation style products for Unix,
and came in around the time Unix transitioned from System III through
System 4 through the early days of System V.

my se was not very good, but i did have denis ritchie as an early tester.

> On Mar 29, 2022, at 6:45 AM, Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:
> 
> Arnold, I agree, I do remember seeing it on what I think was the PWB 4.0 tape.  IMHO: it was before cshell, termcap, vi et al was released inside of the rest of the Bell System and there seemed to be sometimes "SW from BSD be bad/crude" 'tude.  IIRC ber and mmp must have had it running on the Marx's brothers systems in Whippany.  But he had vi, so I personally never used it.
> 
> @Mary Ann - this would have been around the time you were in Columbus and starting the terminfo work.  Do you have any memories?
> 
> On Tue, Mar 29, 2022 at 5:29 AM <arnold@skeeve.com <mailto:arnold@skeeve.com>> wrote:
> Did anyone within the Bell System ever use a screen editor called 'se'?
> (NOT related to the Georgia Tech se editor [se-editor.org <http://se-editor.org/>]).
> 
> I used this on a USG UNIX 4.0 system ~ 1982 when I did some contract
> programming at Southern Bell.  I think it was originally written for
> the Vax but it had been squeezed to run on a PDP-11/70 also.
> 
> I've mentioned this in the past, but it seems to been covered over
> by the sands of time, and that nobody else ever used it.
> 
> Arnold


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 29+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Old screen editors
  2022-03-29  8:40             ` arnold
@ 2022-03-29 13:45               ` Clem Cole
  2022-03-29 14:31                 ` Andrew Hume
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 29+ messages in thread
From: Clem Cole @ 2022-03-29 13:45 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: arnold; +Cc: tuhs

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1056 bytes --]

Arnold, I agree, I do remember seeing it on what I think was the PWB 4.0
tape.  IMHO: it was before cshell, termcap, vi et al was released inside of
the rest of the Bell System and there seemed to be sometimes "SW from BSD
be bad/crude" 'tude.  IIRC ber and mmp must have had it running on the
Marx's brothers systems in Whippany.  But he had vi, so I personally never
used it.

@Mary Ann - this would have been around the time you were in Columbus and
starting the terminfo work.  Do you have any memories?

On Tue, Mar 29, 2022 at 5:29 AM <arnold@skeeve.com> wrote:

> Did anyone within the Bell System ever use a screen editor called 'se'?
> (NOT related to the Georgia Tech se editor [se-editor.org]).
>
> I used this on a USG UNIX 4.0 system ~ 1982 when I did some contract
> programming at Southern Bell.  I think it was originally written for
> the Vax but it had been squeezed to run on a PDP-11/70 also.
>
> I've mentioned this in the past, but it seems to been covered over
> by the sands of time, and that nobody else ever used it.
>
> Arnold
>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 29+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Old screen editors
  2022-03-29 10:39 Noel Chiappa
  2022-03-29 11:05 ` Rob Pike
@ 2022-03-29 13:37 ` Clem Cole
  2022-03-29 15:43 ` Angelo Papenhoff
  2022-03-30  5:36 ` Lars Brinkhoff
  3 siblings, 0 replies; 29+ messages in thread
From: Clem Cole @ 2022-03-29 13:37 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Noel Chiappa; +Cc: tuhs

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Check Paul Cantrell's VTECO - Video Teco Manual
<http://www.copters.com/teco.html> where has the sources here Video Teco
Sourceforge Masters <http://videoteco.sourceforge.net/>

Ward had a nice history here:  TecoEditor
<http://c2.com/wiki/remodel/?TecoEditor> - worth reading - there are some
wonderful quotes.   BTW I agree with Ward, while Ed Post was mostly right
in his "real Programmer' don't use Pascal" tome (also a classic read), but
real TECO users do know what typing their name will do ;-)

On Tue, Mar 29, 2022 at 6:39 AM Noel Chiappa <jnc@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
wrote:

>    > From: George Michaelson
>
>    > Teco was painful.
>
> Some of us can recall when the _only_ choices for editing on UNIX (on the
> PWB1 systems at MIT) were 'ed' and TECO!
>
> But to add some real history (not just the usual low S/N flaming about
> people's opinions of various relatively recent software, which is way too
> common on this list), the guys at MIT in DSSR/RTS (the group which later
> did
> the 68K version of PCC), who had done the port of PDP-11 TECO (in MACRO-11)
> from the Delphi system at MIT (which preceded adoption of UNIX there) - a
> comment in one source file alludes to Delphi, so that's where it came
> from, to
> UNIX (I think this TECO was written there, and was not a port of a DEC one,
> since it's all in lower case, and doesn't have other DEC stylisms), after
> the
> port, added a '^R mode' similar to the one added to the PDP-10 ITS TECO and
> used there to write EMACS (in TECO's usual 'line noise' code - historical
> aside: at one point there was a whole 'Ivory' package for ITS TECO which
> could
> 'purify' ITS TECO code so that one copy in core [actual, real core!] could
> be
> shared by multiple processes). That was used to write an EMACS-like package
> for the PDP-11 UNIX TECO (but much simpler than real EMACS), which we used
> for
> quite a while before Montgomery EMACS for UNIX showed up.
>
> The full dump of the MIT-CSR PWB1 UNIX system which I retrieved has all the
> sources and documentation for that TECO, and the ^R-mode code, etc. If
> anyone
> is interested in seeing it (or maybe even playing with it, which will need
> the UNIX MACRO-11), let me know, and I'll upload it.
>
>         Noel
>
> PS: Speaking of the full dump of the MIT-CSR PWB1 UNIX system, I was poking
> around it a couple of days ago, and I found V6 'multiplexor' kernel
> drivers -
> mpio.c and mpx.c, etc - I think thay 'fell off the back of a truck' at
> Bell,
> like a lot of other stuff we weren't supposed to have, like the circuit
> design
> tools, etc. I'm not sure if I have the user programs to go with them; I
> think
> I may have found some of them for Paul Ruizendaal a while back, but the
> memory
> has faded. Again, if interested, let me know.
>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 29+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Old screen editors
  2022-03-29 12:45         ` Thomas Paulsen
@ 2022-03-29 13:26           ` arnold
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 29+ messages in thread
From: arnold @ 2022-03-29 13:26 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: thomas.paulsen, stewart; +Cc: TUHS

This is the Georgia Tech 'se' screen editor, originally written in
Ratfor as an extension of the Software Tool editor. It was ported to
Unix by Dan Forsyth and to termcap/terminfo by me.

Dan Cort brought it into the 21st century. It's not related to 's'
or any other previous screen editor.

Arnold

"Thomas Paulsen" <thomas.paulsen@firemail.de> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> there are s variants of se out there. Only one known to me
> git://github.com/screen-editor/se.git 
> https://github.com/screen-editor/se
>
>
>
>
> Von: Lawrence Stewart <stewart@serissa.com>
> Datum: 29.03.2022 02:31:14
> An: TUHS@tuhs.org
> Betreff: [TUHS] Old screen editors
>
> At the Stanford Information Systems Lab while I was there 1976-81, we had
> a series of PDP-11s. The first one I remember was an 11/34 running V6 and
> later V7.  It was later upgraded to, I think a /45 and finally a /70.
>
> At first everyone used ed, then Prof. John Gill hacked it to add a command,
> I think ‘%’ that was the equivalent of .-10,.+10p which on our 9600 baud
> Hazeltine’s was a glimpse of the future.
>
> At some point we got ex/vi, but before that we got the “Rand Editor” re,
> which was a perfectly
> functional screen editor, if you squinted a bit.
>
> Does anyone here know the place of re in the history?
>
> Later, Gill went off for a sabbatical at Yorktown Heights and came back to
> complain about having
> to use SOS on the mainframe.  He reported, however, that global search and
> replace was very fast.
>
> -L
>
> Also a few years later I got Dave Conroy’s version of microemacs.  I complained
> about the key bindings and he told me to use the “change configuration” command,
> or cc.
>
>
>
>

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 29+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Old screen editors
  2022-03-29  8:29           ` Rob Pike
@ 2022-03-29 13:24             ` Clem Cole
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 29+ messages in thread
From: Clem Cole @ 2022-03-29 13:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Rob Pike; +Cc: TUHS main list

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1124 bytes --]

On Tue, Mar 29, 2022 at 4:31 AM Rob Pike <robpike@gmail.com> wrote:

> I used SOS a bit, but did anyone use Stopgap itself, or only its son?
>
I was going to ask the same question.

Funny, I still often (tend) to use line numbers to do multi-line operations
not marks - probably because SOS was one of the first editors I learned and
first I learned to use really well.

Now here is where my memory is hazy.  I do remember using SOS on the
PDP-10s which had mostly glass TTYs, but for some reason I have memories of
using it on an ASR-33 on the TSS/360 - which must be wrong.    I thinking,
there probably had to have been an IBM editor similar to it that I'm
confusing with the TOPS/TENEX.  I also have no memories of what editor we
used on the original VMS V1.0 machine -- it must have been a member of the
TECO family, although again I want to say we had something like SOS.

I do remember that learning ed(1) on UNIX was a piece of cake and
immediately loved regex for patterns.  I was still doing some PDP-10
hacking for the CS-Dept in those days, and bitching that I wanted ed(1) on
the 10s after I mastered it.

Clem

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 29+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Old screen editors
  2022-03-29  0:31       ` [TUHS] Old screen editors Lawrence Stewart
  2022-03-29  0:53         ` Charles H Sauer (he/him)
@ 2022-03-29 12:45         ` Thomas Paulsen
  2022-03-29 13:26           ` arnold
  2022-03-30  8:37         ` Ralph Corderoy
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 29+ messages in thread
From: Thomas Paulsen @ 2022-03-29 12:45 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Lawrence Stewart; +Cc: TUHS

Hi,

there are s variants of se out there. Only one known to me
git://github.com/screen-editor/se.git 
https://github.com/screen-editor/se




Von: Lawrence Stewart <stewart@serissa.com>
Datum: 29.03.2022 02:31:14
An: TUHS@tuhs.org
Betreff: [TUHS] Old screen editors

At the Stanford Information Systems Lab while I was there 1976-81, we had
a series of PDP-11s. The first one I remember was an 11/34 running V6 and
later V7.  It was later upgraded to, I think a /45 and finally a /70.

At first everyone used ed, then Prof. John Gill hacked it to add a command,
I think ‘%’ that was the equivalent of .-10,.+10p which on our 9600 baud
Hazeltine’s was a glimpse of the future.

At some point we got ex/vi, but before that we got the “Rand Editor” re,
which was a perfectly
functional screen editor, if you squinted a bit.

Does anyone here know the place of re in the history?

Later, Gill went off for a sabbatical at Yorktown Heights and came back to
complain about having
to use SOS on the mainframe.  He reported, however, that global search and
replace was very fast.

-L

Also a few years later I got Dave Conroy’s version of microemacs.  I complained
about the key bindings and he told me to use the “change configuration” command,
or cc.





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 29+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Old screen editors
  2022-03-29 10:39 Noel Chiappa
@ 2022-03-29 11:05 ` Rob Pike
  2022-03-29 13:37 ` Clem Cole
                   ` (2 subsequent siblings)
  3 siblings, 0 replies; 29+ messages in thread
From: Rob Pike @ 2022-03-29 11:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Noel Chiappa; +Cc: TUHS main list

Be careful, those early multiplexer attempts by Chesson were very
buggy. I bounced off them pretty hard, and greg and I had long
debugging sessions trying to get ur-Jerq up reliably on them. The
pains were one component of dmr proposing streams* as another model.

I was using the v7 ones; the v6 ones must be even buggier.

-rob

* Or as USG later dubbed them, STREAMS.

On Tue, Mar 29, 2022 at 9:40 PM Noel Chiappa <jnc@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> wrote:
>
>    > From: George Michaelson
>
>    > Teco was painful.
>
> Some of us can recall when the _only_ choices for editing on UNIX (on the
> PWB1 systems at MIT) were 'ed' and TECO!
>
> But to add some real history (not just the usual low S/N flaming about
> people's opinions of various relatively recent software, which is way too
> common on this list), the guys at MIT in DSSR/RTS (the group which later did
> the 68K version of PCC), who had done the port of PDP-11 TECO (in MACRO-11)
> from the Delphi system at MIT (which preceded adoption of UNIX there) - a
> comment in one source file alludes to Delphi, so that's where it came from, to
> UNIX (I think this TECO was written there, and was not a port of a DEC one,
> since it's all in lower case, and doesn't have other DEC stylisms), after the
> port, added a '^R mode' similar to the one added to the PDP-10 ITS TECO and
> used there to write EMACS (in TECO's usual 'line noise' code - historical
> aside: at one point there was a whole 'Ivory' package for ITS TECO which could
> 'purify' ITS TECO code so that one copy in core [actual, real core!] could be
> shared by multiple processes). That was used to write an EMACS-like package
> for the PDP-11 UNIX TECO (but much simpler than real EMACS), which we used for
> quite a while before Montgomery EMACS for UNIX showed up.
>
> The full dump of the MIT-CSR PWB1 UNIX system which I retrieved has all the
> sources and documentation for that TECO, and the ^R-mode code, etc. If anyone
> is interested in seeing it (or maybe even playing with it, which will need
> the UNIX MACRO-11), let me know, and I'll upload it.
>
>         Noel
>
> PS: Speaking of the full dump of the MIT-CSR PWB1 UNIX system, I was poking
> around it a couple of days ago, and I found V6 'multiplexor' kernel drivers -
> mpio.c and mpx.c, etc - I think thay 'fell off the back of a truck' at Bell,
> like a lot of other stuff we weren't supposed to have, like the circuit design
> tools, etc. I'm not sure if I have the user programs to go with them; I think
> I may have found some of them for Paul Ruizendaal a while back, but the memory
> has faded. Again, if interested, let me know.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 29+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Old screen editors
@ 2022-03-29 10:39 Noel Chiappa
  2022-03-29 11:05 ` Rob Pike
                   ` (3 more replies)
  0 siblings, 4 replies; 29+ messages in thread
From: Noel Chiappa @ 2022-03-29 10:39 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs; +Cc: jnc

   > From: George Michaelson

   > Teco was painful.

Some of us can recall when the _only_ choices for editing on UNIX (on the
PWB1 systems at MIT) were 'ed' and TECO!

But to add some real history (not just the usual low S/N flaming about
people's opinions of various relatively recent software, which is way too
common on this list), the guys at MIT in DSSR/RTS (the group which later did
the 68K version of PCC), who had done the port of PDP-11 TECO (in MACRO-11)
from the Delphi system at MIT (which preceded adoption of UNIX there) - a
comment in one source file alludes to Delphi, so that's where it came from, to
UNIX (I think this TECO was written there, and was not a port of a DEC one,
since it's all in lower case, and doesn't have other DEC stylisms), after the
port, added a '^R mode' similar to the one added to the PDP-10 ITS TECO and
used there to write EMACS (in TECO's usual 'line noise' code - historical
aside: at one point there was a whole 'Ivory' package for ITS TECO which could
'purify' ITS TECO code so that one copy in core [actual, real core!] could be
shared by multiple processes). That was used to write an EMACS-like package
for the PDP-11 UNIX TECO (but much simpler than real EMACS), which we used for
quite a while before Montgomery EMACS for UNIX showed up.

The full dump of the MIT-CSR PWB1 UNIX system which I retrieved has all the
sources and documentation for that TECO, and the ^R-mode code, etc. If anyone
is interested in seeing it (or maybe even playing with it, which will need
the UNIX MACRO-11), let me know, and I'll upload it.

	Noel

PS: Speaking of the full dump of the MIT-CSR PWB1 UNIX system, I was poking
around it a couple of days ago, and I found V6 'multiplexor' kernel drivers -
mpio.c and mpx.c, etc - I think thay 'fell off the back of a truck' at Bell,
like a lot of other stuff we weren't supposed to have, like the circuit design
tools, etc. I'm not sure if I have the user programs to go with them; I think
I may have found some of them for Paul Ruizendaal a while back, but the memory
has faded. Again, if interested, let me know.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 29+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Old screen editors
  2022-03-29  8:34           ` George Michaelson
@ 2022-03-29  8:40             ` arnold
  2022-03-29 13:45               ` Clem Cole
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 29+ messages in thread
From: arnold @ 2022-03-29  8:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs, ggm

Did anyone within the Bell System ever use a screen editor called 'se'?
(NOT related to the Georgia Tech se editor [se-editor.org]).

I used this on a USG UNIX 4.0 system ~ 1982 when I did some contract
programming at Southern Bell.  I think it was originally written for
the Vax but it had been squeezed to run on a PDP-11/70 also.

I've mentioned this in the past, but it seems to been covered over
by the sands of time, and that nobody else ever used it.

Arnold

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 29+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Old screen editors
  2022-03-29  0:53         ` Charles H Sauer (he/him)
  2022-03-29  8:29           ` Rob Pike
@ 2022-03-29  8:34           ` George Michaelson
  2022-03-29  8:40             ` arnold
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 29+ messages in thread
From: George Michaelson @ 2022-03-29  8:34 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: TUHS main list

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 291 bytes --]

One called ned? It did something unusual to handle > 80 long lines. I think
it came off a DECUS tape. I only lasted a week and went back to SOS.

Teco was painful. I felt I was being laughed at. I have the manual still
and ran a port on BSD for a while but I wound up laughing at myself.

G

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 29+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Old screen editors
  2022-03-29  0:53         ` Charles H Sauer (he/him)
@ 2022-03-29  8:29           ` Rob Pike
  2022-03-29 13:24             ` Clem Cole
  2022-03-29  8:34           ` George Michaelson
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 29+ messages in thread
From: Rob Pike @ 2022-03-29  8:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Charles H Sauer (he/him); +Cc: TUHS main list

I used SOS a bit, but did anyone use Stopgap itself, or only its son?

-rob

On Tue, Mar 29, 2022 at 11:55 AM Charles H Sauer (he/him)
<sauer@technologists.com> wrote:
>
> Aaah, just what we need, an editor discussion.
>
> My first hands on experience was with PC/IX on an XT. ISC provided INed,
> which I was told was based on the Rand Editor. INed was a gentle
> transition from using XEDIT on VM/370, so I was comfortable with INed.
>
> But one of my Unix mentors persuaded me to use vi, and that has been my
> preferred editor since roughly 1985, assuming you count Vim as vi, since
> I mostly use Vim on Linux, Windows and macOS, only occasionally using
> real vi.
>
> Charlie
>
> On 3/28/2022 7:31 PM, Lawrence Stewart wrote:
> > At the Stanford Information Systems Lab while I was there 1976-81, we had a series of PDP-11s. The first one I remember was an 11/34 running V6 and later V7.  It was later upgraded to, I think a /45 and finally a /70.
> >
> > At first everyone used ed, then Prof. John Gill hacked it to add a command, I think ‘%’ that was the equivalent of .-10,.+10p which on our 9600 baud Hazeltine’s was a glimpse of the future.
> >
> > At some point we got ex/vi, but before that we got the “Rand Editor” re, which was a perfectly
> > functional screen editor, if you squinted a bit.
> >
> > Does anyone here know the place of re in the history?
> >
> > Later, Gill went off for a sabbatical at Yorktown Heights and came back to complain about having
> > to use SOS on the mainframe.  He reported, however, that global search and replace was very fast.
> >
> > -L
> >
> > Also a few years later I got Dave Conroy’s version of microemacs.  I complained about the key bindings and he told me to use the “change configuration” command, or cc.
> >
>
> --
> voice: +1.512.784.7526       e-mail: sauer@technologists.com
> fax: +1.512.346.5240         Web: https://technologists.com/sauer/
> Facebook/Google/Twitter: CharlesHSauer

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 29+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Old screen editors
  2022-03-29  0:31       ` [TUHS] Old screen editors Lawrence Stewart
@ 2022-03-29  0:53         ` Charles H Sauer (he/him)
  2022-03-29  8:29           ` Rob Pike
  2022-03-29  8:34           ` George Michaelson
  2022-03-29 12:45         ` Thomas Paulsen
  2022-03-30  8:37         ` Ralph Corderoy
  2 siblings, 2 replies; 29+ messages in thread
From: Charles H Sauer (he/him) @ 2022-03-29  0:53 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

Aaah, just what we need, an editor discussion.

My first hands on experience was with PC/IX on an XT. ISC provided INed, 
which I was told was based on the Rand Editor. INed was a gentle 
transition from using XEDIT on VM/370, so I was comfortable with INed.

But one of my Unix mentors persuaded me to use vi, and that has been my 
preferred editor since roughly 1985, assuming you count Vim as vi, since 
I mostly use Vim on Linux, Windows and macOS, only occasionally using 
real vi.

Charlie

On 3/28/2022 7:31 PM, Lawrence Stewart wrote:
> At the Stanford Information Systems Lab while I was there 1976-81, we had a series of PDP-11s. The first one I remember was an 11/34 running V6 and later V7.  It was later upgraded to, I think a /45 and finally a /70.
> 
> At first everyone used ed, then Prof. John Gill hacked it to add a command, I think ‘%’ that was the equivalent of .-10,.+10p which on our 9600 baud Hazeltine’s was a glimpse of the future.
> 
> At some point we got ex/vi, but before that we got the “Rand Editor” re, which was a perfectly
> functional screen editor, if you squinted a bit.
> 
> Does anyone here know the place of re in the history?
> 
> Later, Gill went off for a sabbatical at Yorktown Heights and came back to complain about having
> to use SOS on the mainframe.  He reported, however, that global search and replace was very fast.
> 
> -L
> 
> Also a few years later I got Dave Conroy’s version of microemacs.  I complained about the key bindings and he told me to use the “change configuration” command, or cc.
> 

-- 
voice: +1.512.784.7526       e-mail: sauer@technologists.com
fax: +1.512.346.5240         Web: https://technologists.com/sauer/
Facebook/Google/Twitter: CharlesHSauer

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 29+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Old screen editors
  2022-03-29  0:00     ` Bakul Shah
@ 2022-03-29  0:31       ` Lawrence Stewart
  2022-03-29  0:53         ` Charles H Sauer (he/him)
                           ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 29+ messages in thread
From: Lawrence Stewart @ 2022-03-29  0:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: TUHS

At the Stanford Information Systems Lab while I was there 1976-81, we had a series of PDP-11s. The first one I remember was an 11/34 running V6 and later V7.  It was later upgraded to, I think a /45 and finally a /70.

At first everyone used ed, then Prof. John Gill hacked it to add a command, I think ‘%’ that was the equivalent of .-10,.+10p which on our 9600 baud Hazeltine’s was a glimpse of the future.

At some point we got ex/vi, but before that we got the “Rand Editor” re, which was a perfectly
functional screen editor, if you squinted a bit.

Does anyone here know the place of re in the history?

Later, Gill went off for a sabbatical at Yorktown Heights and came back to complain about having
to use SOS on the mainframe.  He reported, however, that global search and replace was very fast.

-L

Also a few years later I got Dave Conroy’s version of microemacs.  I complained about the key bindings and he told me to use the “change configuration” command, or cc.


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 29+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2022-03-30  8:47 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 29+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2022-03-29 18:35 [TUHS] Old screen editors Noel Chiappa
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2022-03-29 20:40 Noel Chiappa
2022-03-29 20:50 ` Phil Budne
2022-03-29 20:54 ` Ron Natalie
2022-03-30  5:41   ` Lars Brinkhoff
2022-03-30  7:50     ` Thomas Paulsen
2022-03-29 19:09 Steve Simon
2022-03-29 21:46 ` Ron Natalie
2022-03-30  0:22   ` Tom Lyon via TUHS
2022-03-29 10:39 Noel Chiappa
2022-03-29 11:05 ` Rob Pike
2022-03-29 13:37 ` Clem Cole
2022-03-29 15:43 ` Angelo Papenhoff
2022-03-30  5:36 ` Lars Brinkhoff
2022-03-28 21:03 [TUHS] Alive? Warren Toomey via TUHS
2022-03-28 22:24 ` Bakul Shah
2022-03-28 23:23   ` Greg 'groggy' Lehey
2022-03-29  0:00     ` Bakul Shah
2022-03-29  0:31       ` [TUHS] Old screen editors Lawrence Stewart
2022-03-29  0:53         ` Charles H Sauer (he/him)
2022-03-29  8:29           ` Rob Pike
2022-03-29 13:24             ` Clem Cole
2022-03-29  8:34           ` George Michaelson
2022-03-29  8:40             ` arnold
2022-03-29 13:45               ` Clem Cole
2022-03-29 14:31                 ` Andrew Hume
2022-03-29 14:35                   ` arnold
2022-03-29 14:42                     ` Andrew Hume
2022-03-30  0:59                       ` Mary Ann Horton
2022-03-30  5:11                       ` arnold
2022-03-29 12:45         ` Thomas Paulsen
2022-03-29 13:26           ` arnold
2022-03-30  8:37         ` Ralph Corderoy

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