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* Re: [TUHS] Old screen editors
@ 2022-03-29 20:40 Noel Chiappa
  2022-03-29 20:50 ` Phil Budne
  2022-03-29 20:54 ` Ron Natalie
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 29+ messages in thread
From: Noel Chiappa @ 2022-03-29 20:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs; +Cc: jnc

    > From: Clem Cole

    > Ward had a nice history here:  TecoEditor
    > <http://c2.com/wiki/remodel/?TecoEditor> - worth reading

Yeah, pretty good. A couple of minor points:

"TECO Madness -- a moment of convenience, a lifetime of regret" - I
have seen this attributed to Dave Moon.

"the [ITS] version of TECO was used by Richard Stallman to implement the
original Emacs Editor" - accurate if read _just_ the right way, but incorrect
in the 'naive' reading.

Stallman didn't _originate_ the body of stuff that eventually turned into ITS
EMACS, although he did take over maintenance of it once it was rolling; and
later wrote Gnu Emacs from scratch himself.

The mostly accurate one-line history is the one given in Dan Weinreb's blog
"the original (TECO-based) Emacs was created and designed by Guy L. Steele
Jr. and David Moon. After they had it working, and it had become established
as the standard text editor at the AI lab, Stallman took over its
maintenance", to which Moon added "in all fairness I have to say that
Stallman greatly improved Emacs after he 'liberated' it from Guy and me".
More people were involved than Moon, Steele and Stallman, though; a lot of
people were writing stuff before Stallman took over; and even after that,
others (like Eugene Ciccarelli, a member of the CSR group) helped a lot with
ITS EMACS.

Stallman's EMACS paper ("sEMACS: The Extensible, Customizable,
Self-Documenting Display Editor") contains _many_ statements that are
_demonstrably_ wrong, e.g. "it is simply impossible to implement an extensible
system in [languages like PASCAL or C]" ... "This eliminates most popular
programming languages except LISP, APL and SNOBOL." Given that I've been using
a heavily customized Epsilon for decades, which is written completely in EEL
(a dialect of C enhanced with editing primitives like buffers, etc), that's
clerly very confused.

    Noel

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 29+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Old screen editors
@ 2022-03-29 19:09 Steve Simon
  2022-03-29 21:46 ` Ron Natalie
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 29+ messages in thread
From: Steve Simon @ 2022-03-29 19:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs


I never really used it but i do remember an editor called le on the v7 interdata/Perkin Elmer i used at Leeds poly.

I read electronics and we  all used vi, the computer science people at a different campus used le on their Interdata; no idea why.

anyone any background on le? ihave not seen sight nor sound of it since.

-Steve


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 29+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Old screen editors
@ 2022-03-29 18:35 Noel Chiappa
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 29+ messages in thread
From: Noel Chiappa @ 2022-03-29 18:35 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs; +Cc: jnc

    > From: Angelo Papenhoff

    > By 'upload it' do you mean the full dump or TECO only?

At this point in time, not the full dump (below for why).

I have previously uploaded lots of other bits, e.g. (looks quickly): the
TCP/IP that was written for it (with the TCP in the 'user process', making
for a small system, good for -11/23's and -11/40's); Montgomery EMACS; TECO
(already done - along with the MACRO-11, but I still need to do the linker,
and the BCPL compiler one needs for the linker).

    > That system sounds very interesting and I'd love to see the whole thing.

Unfortunately, the dump includes _everything_ on the system, including
personal email, etc, etc. So I have to curate it anything I upload.

I suppose I should put together an 'index page', which lists (and links
to) everything that has been uploaded?

	Noel

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 29+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Old screen editors
@ 2022-03-29 10:39 Noel Chiappa
  2022-03-29 11:05 ` Rob Pike
                   ` (3 more replies)
  0 siblings, 4 replies; 29+ messages in thread
From: Noel Chiappa @ 2022-03-29 10:39 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs; +Cc: jnc

   > From: George Michaelson

   > Teco was painful.

Some of us can recall when the _only_ choices for editing on UNIX (on the
PWB1 systems at MIT) were 'ed' and TECO!

But to add some real history (not just the usual low S/N flaming about
people's opinions of various relatively recent software, which is way too
common on this list), the guys at MIT in DSSR/RTS (the group which later did
the 68K version of PCC), who had done the port of PDP-11 TECO (in MACRO-11)
from the Delphi system at MIT (which preceded adoption of UNIX there) - a
comment in one source file alludes to Delphi, so that's where it came from, to
UNIX (I think this TECO was written there, and was not a port of a DEC one,
since it's all in lower case, and doesn't have other DEC stylisms), after the
port, added a '^R mode' similar to the one added to the PDP-10 ITS TECO and
used there to write EMACS (in TECO's usual 'line noise' code - historical
aside: at one point there was a whole 'Ivory' package for ITS TECO which could
'purify' ITS TECO code so that one copy in core [actual, real core!] could be
shared by multiple processes). That was used to write an EMACS-like package
for the PDP-11 UNIX TECO (but much simpler than real EMACS), which we used for
quite a while before Montgomery EMACS for UNIX showed up.

The full dump of the MIT-CSR PWB1 UNIX system which I retrieved has all the
sources and documentation for that TECO, and the ^R-mode code, etc. If anyone
is interested in seeing it (or maybe even playing with it, which will need
the UNIX MACRO-11), let me know, and I'll upload it.

	Noel

PS: Speaking of the full dump of the MIT-CSR PWB1 UNIX system, I was poking
around it a couple of days ago, and I found V6 'multiplexor' kernel drivers -
mpio.c and mpx.c, etc - I think thay 'fell off the back of a truck' at Bell,
like a lot of other stuff we weren't supposed to have, like the circuit design
tools, etc. I'm not sure if I have the user programs to go with them; I think
I may have found some of them for Paul Ruizendaal a while back, but the memory
has faded. Again, if interested, let me know.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 29+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Alive?
@ 2022-03-28 21:03 Warren Toomey via TUHS
  2022-03-28 22:24 ` Bakul Shah
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 29+ messages in thread
From: Warren Toomey via TUHS @ 2022-03-28 21:03 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

Just checking that the TUHS list hasn't gone belly up, as it's been pretty
quiet for a week :-)

Cheers, Warren

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 29+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2022-03-30  8:47 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 29+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2022-03-29 20:40 [TUHS] Old screen editors Noel Chiappa
2022-03-29 20:50 ` Phil Budne
2022-03-29 20:54 ` Ron Natalie
2022-03-30  5:41   ` Lars Brinkhoff
2022-03-30  7:50     ` Thomas Paulsen
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2022-03-29 19:09 Steve Simon
2022-03-29 21:46 ` Ron Natalie
2022-03-30  0:22   ` Tom Lyon via TUHS
2022-03-29 18:35 Noel Chiappa
2022-03-29 10:39 Noel Chiappa
2022-03-29 11:05 ` Rob Pike
2022-03-29 13:37 ` Clem Cole
2022-03-29 15:43 ` Angelo Papenhoff
2022-03-30  5:36 ` Lars Brinkhoff
2022-03-28 21:03 [TUHS] Alive? Warren Toomey via TUHS
2022-03-28 22:24 ` Bakul Shah
2022-03-28 23:23   ` Greg 'groggy' Lehey
2022-03-29  0:00     ` Bakul Shah
2022-03-29  0:31       ` [TUHS] Old screen editors Lawrence Stewart
2022-03-29  0:53         ` Charles H Sauer (he/him)
2022-03-29  8:29           ` Rob Pike
2022-03-29 13:24             ` Clem Cole
2022-03-29  8:34           ` George Michaelson
2022-03-29  8:40             ` arnold
2022-03-29 13:45               ` Clem Cole
2022-03-29 14:31                 ` Andrew Hume
2022-03-29 14:35                   ` arnold
2022-03-29 14:42                     ` Andrew Hume
2022-03-30  0:59                       ` Mary Ann Horton
2022-03-30  5:11                       ` arnold
2022-03-29 12:45         ` Thomas Paulsen
2022-03-29 13:26           ` arnold
2022-03-30  8:37         ` Ralph Corderoy

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