From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=MAILING_LIST_MULTI, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 23678 invoked from network); 17 Jun 2022 00:10:44 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 17 Jun 2022 00:10:44 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D2C240CEA; Fri, 17 Jun 2022 10:10:40 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mcvoy.com (mcvoy.com [192.169.23.250]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D58E040CE9 for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2022 10:10:34 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mcvoy.com (Postfix, from userid 3546) id 32BC935E0C7; Thu, 16 Jun 2022 17:10:34 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2022 17:10:34 -0700 From: Larry McVoy To: George Michaelson Message-ID: <20220617001034.GA27651@mcvoy.com> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) Message-ID-Hash: YMJRLEJXTSOW3WILLVEY5DX74WCCQNKM X-Message-ID-Hash: YMJRLEJXTSOW3WILLVEY5DX74WCCQNKM X-MailFrom: lm@mcvoy.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: forgotten versions List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: On Fri, Jun 17, 2022 at 09:44:02AM +1000, George Michaelson wrote: > v7 exploded into the world, and made BSD and SunOS happen. > > v8 and 9 and 10 had to work harder to get mindshare because something > was already there. I think this is spot on. v7 was pretty easy to find in src form, I know I've seen some of v{8,9,10} in Shannon's treasure trove of Unix source at Sun but they were less common. > things like rc were too "confrontational" to a mind attuned to bourne > shell. Sockets (which btw, totally SUCK PUS) were coded into things > and even (YECHH) made POSIX and IETF spec status. Streams didn't stand > a chance. There was streams (from Dennis) and STREAMS from Sys whatever. I don't know how great streams was, I read the paper and it seemed fine for a tty driver, networking I dunno. And having seen an SGI SMP machine brought to it's knees by racks and racks of modems, I'm not sure streams is even a good idea for ttys; it's fine for a personal system, I've never seen that sort of layered design perform well at scale. I have seen what a networking stack in STREAMS did, it was awful, absolutely awful. Sun bought the STREAMS networking stack from Lachman, same one that I ported to the ETA 10 and SCO Unix, it sucked hard. Sun threw it out, hired Mentat to give them a performant STREAMS stack, I'm not sure that ever worked. I know they put back the socket interface, as much as people don't like it, it's a non-starter to have an OS without it.