* [TUHS] Thoughts on Licenses @ 2022-07-02 18:15 Clem Cole 2022-07-02 19:07 ` [TUHS] " Marc Donner 2022-07-03 21:38 ` Jay Logue via TUHS 0 siblings, 2 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Clem Cole @ 2022-07-02 18:15 UTC (permalink / raw) To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1648 bytes --] As part of some of simh work, I've been immersed in some licensing discussions. Thanks for the V8-10, Plan-9 and Inferno notes - they are relevant. Anyway, WRT to TUHS, I'm thinking that at least in the case of the Unix style bits, I propose a small change to Waren's top-level directory. Add a new dir called something like 'Legal Docs' or 'Copyrights+Licenses'. Then move the Caldera document and Warren's current note into that area. Then add copies of anything we can collect like the Dan Cross's V8-10, anything WRT to Plan9/Inferno or anything we from the UNIX world - such as something Sun, DEC or HP or like might have added. Maybe add a subdirectory with the AT&T/USL case details. And maybe add a sub-directory with known FOSS licenses used by the UNIX community and add a copy of the 3-clause BSD and maybe even the two GPLs. Then update the README in the current top-level dir. Adding to the contents something like "*the IP contained on this website is covered by different licenses depending on the specific IP. Copies of these can be found with the source code itself, but have also been all collected together in the top-level directory: ...*." I think these all have both historical values, as well as practical values. As I said, I was not sure myself and I think other would be less ignorant if they could find it all easily. In the case of the practical, a for instance, in an email with some lawyers last week, I had pointed them at the Caldera document. I'ld have loved to have been able to say look in this directory. The Caldera and later Nokia Licenses are what we are considering as examples. Thoughts? [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2493 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Thoughts on Licenses 2022-07-02 18:15 [TUHS] Thoughts on Licenses Clem Cole @ 2022-07-02 19:07 ` Marc Donner 2022-07-02 20:57 ` Warner Losh 2022-07-03 21:38 ` Jay Logue via TUHS 1 sibling, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread From: Marc Donner @ 2022-07-02 19:07 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Clem Cole; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2058 bytes --] I would call that top level directory "metadata" ... the licensing stuff is quite relevant to the owner and operator of the system, but not directly relevant to any of its actual content or function. ===== nygeek.net mindthegapdialogs.com/home <https://www.mindthegapdialogs.com/home> On Sat, Jul 2, 2022 at 2:17 PM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote: > As part of some of simh work, I've been immersed in some licensing > discussions. Thanks for the V8-10, Plan-9 and Inferno notes - they are > relevant. > > Anyway, WRT to TUHS, I'm thinking that at least in the case of the Unix > style bits, I propose a small change to Waren's top-level directory. Add > a new dir called something like 'Legal Docs' or 'Copyrights+Licenses'. > Then move the Caldera document and Warren's current note into that area. > Then add copies of anything we can collect like the Dan Cross's V8-10, > anything WRT to Plan9/Inferno or anything we from the UNIX world - such as > something Sun, DEC or HP or like might have added. Maybe add a > subdirectory with the AT&T/USL case details. And maybe add a > sub-directory with known FOSS licenses used by the UNIX community and add a > copy of the 3-clause BSD and maybe even the two GPLs. > > Then update the README in the current top-level dir. Adding to the > contents something like "*the IP contained on this website is covered by > different licenses depending on the specific IP. Copies of these can be > found with the source code itself, but have also been all collected > together in the top-level directory: ...*." > > I think these all have both historical values, as well as practical > values. As I said, I was not sure myself and I think other would be less > ignorant if they could find it all easily. In the case of the practical, > a for instance, in an email with some lawyers last week, I had pointed them > at the Caldera document. I'ld have loved to have been able to say look in > this directory. The Caldera and later Nokia Licenses are what we are > considering as examples. > > Thoughts? > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 3432 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Thoughts on Licenses 2022-07-02 19:07 ` [TUHS] " Marc Donner @ 2022-07-02 20:57 ` Warner Losh 2022-07-02 21:02 ` Larry McVoy 0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread From: Warner Losh @ 2022-07-02 20:57 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Marc Donner; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2309 bytes --] Before we go inventing our own thing, let's just add spdx tags and metadata..... there already is a standard for this. Warner On Sat, Jul 2, 2022, 1:09 PM Marc Donner <marc.donner@gmail.com> wrote: > I would call that top level directory "metadata" ... the licensing stuff > is quite relevant to the owner and operator of the system, but not directly > relevant to any of its actual content or function. > ===== > nygeek.net > mindthegapdialogs.com/home <https://www.mindthegapdialogs.com/home> > > > On Sat, Jul 2, 2022 at 2:17 PM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote: > >> As part of some of simh work, I've been immersed in some licensing >> discussions. Thanks for the V8-10, Plan-9 and Inferno notes - they are >> relevant. >> >> Anyway, WRT to TUHS, I'm thinking that at least in the case of the Unix >> style bits, I propose a small change to Waren's top-level directory. Add >> a new dir called something like 'Legal Docs' or 'Copyrights+Licenses'. >> Then move the Caldera document and Warren's current note into that area. >> Then add copies of anything we can collect like the Dan Cross's V8-10, >> anything WRT to Plan9/Inferno or anything we from the UNIX world - such as >> something Sun, DEC or HP or like might have added. Maybe add a >> subdirectory with the AT&T/USL case details. And maybe add a >> sub-directory with known FOSS licenses used by the UNIX community and add a >> copy of the 3-clause BSD and maybe even the two GPLs. >> >> Then update the README in the current top-level dir. Adding to the >> contents something like "*the IP contained on this website is covered by >> different licenses depending on the specific IP. Copies of these can be >> found with the source code itself, but have also been all collected >> together in the top-level directory: ...*." >> >> I think these all have both historical values, as well as practical >> values. As I said, I was not sure myself and I think other would be less >> ignorant if they could find it all easily. In the case of the practical, >> a for instance, in an email with some lawyers last week, I had pointed them >> at the Caldera document. I'ld have loved to have been able to say look in >> this directory. The Caldera and later Nokia Licenses are what we are >> considering as examples. >> >> Thoughts? >> > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 3991 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Thoughts on Licenses 2022-07-02 20:57 ` Warner Losh @ 2022-07-02 21:02 ` Larry McVoy 2022-07-02 23:54 ` Clem Cole 0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread From: Larry McVoy @ 2022-07-02 21:02 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Warner Losh; +Cc: Marc Donner, The Eunuchs Hysterical Society If I were looking for licenses "Copyrights+Licenses" would make me find, "metadata" I wouldn't think to look in. But I'm an old retired dude without many brain cells left. On Sat, Jul 02, 2022 at 02:57:31PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > Before we go inventing our own thing, let's just add spdx tags and > metadata..... there already is a standard for this. > > Warner > > On Sat, Jul 2, 2022, 1:09 PM Marc Donner <marc.donner@gmail.com> wrote: > > > I would call that top level directory "metadata" ... the licensing stuff > > is quite relevant to the owner and operator of the system, but not directly > > relevant to any of its actual content or function. > > ===== > > nygeek.net > > mindthegapdialogs.com/home <https://www.mindthegapdialogs.com/home> > > > > > > On Sat, Jul 2, 2022 at 2:17 PM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote: > > > >> As part of some of simh work, I've been immersed in some licensing > >> discussions. Thanks for the V8-10, Plan-9 and Inferno notes - they are > >> relevant. > >> > >> Anyway, WRT to TUHS, I'm thinking that at least in the case of the Unix > >> style bits, I propose a small change to Waren's top-level directory. Add > >> a new dir called something like 'Legal Docs' or 'Copyrights+Licenses'. > >> Then move the Caldera document and Warren's current note into that area. > >> Then add copies of anything we can collect like the Dan Cross's V8-10, > >> anything WRT to Plan9/Inferno or anything we from the UNIX world - such as > >> something Sun, DEC or HP or like might have added. Maybe add a > >> subdirectory with the AT&T/USL case details. And maybe add a > >> sub-directory with known FOSS licenses used by the UNIX community and add a > >> copy of the 3-clause BSD and maybe even the two GPLs. > >> > >> Then update the README in the current top-level dir. Adding to the > >> contents something like "*the IP contained on this website is covered by > >> different licenses depending on the specific IP. Copies of these can be > >> found with the source code itself, but have also been all collected > >> together in the top-level directory: ...*." > >> > >> I think these all have both historical values, as well as practical > >> values. As I said, I was not sure myself and I think other would be less > >> ignorant if they could find it all easily. In the case of the practical, > >> a for instance, in an email with some lawyers last week, I had pointed them > >> at the Caldera document. I'ld have loved to have been able to say look in > >> this directory. The Caldera and later Nokia Licenses are what we are > >> considering as examples. > >> > >> Thoughts? > >> > > -- --- Larry McVoy Retired to fishing http://www.mcvoy.com/lm/boat ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Thoughts on Licenses 2022-07-02 21:02 ` Larry McVoy @ 2022-07-02 23:54 ` Clem Cole 2022-07-03 2:03 ` Warner Losh 0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread From: Clem Cole @ 2022-07-02 23:54 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Larry McVoy; +Cc: Marc Donner, The Eunuchs Hysterical Society [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2992 bytes --] Agreed On Sat, Jul 2, 2022 at 5:03 PM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote: > If I were looking for licenses "Copyrights+Licenses" would make me > find, "metadata" I wouldn't think to look in. > > But I'm an old retired dude without many brain cells left. > > On Sat, Jul 02, 2022 at 02:57:31PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > > Before we go inventing our own thing, let's just add spdx tags and > > metadata..... there already is a standard for this. > > > > Warner > > > > On Sat, Jul 2, 2022, 1:09 PM Marc Donner <marc.donner@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > I would call that top level directory "metadata" ... the licensing > stuff > > > is quite relevant to the owner and operator of the system, but not > directly > > > relevant to any of its actual content or function. > > > ===== > > > nygeek.net > > > mindthegapdialogs.com/home <https://www.mindthegapdialogs.com/home> > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Jul 2, 2022 at 2:17 PM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote: > > > > > >> As part of some of simh work, I've been immersed in some licensing > > >> discussions. Thanks for the V8-10, Plan-9 and Inferno notes - they > are > > >> relevant. > > >> > > >> Anyway, WRT to TUHS, I'm thinking that at least in the case of the > Unix > > >> style bits, I propose a small change to Waren's top-level directory. > Add > > >> a new dir called something like 'Legal Docs' or 'Copyrights+Licenses'. > > >> Then move the Caldera document and Warren's current note into that > area. > > >> Then add copies of anything we can collect like the Dan Cross's V8-10, > > >> anything WRT to Plan9/Inferno or anything we from the UNIX world - > such as > > >> something Sun, DEC or HP or like might have added. Maybe add a > > >> subdirectory with the AT&T/USL case details. And maybe add a > > >> sub-directory with known FOSS licenses used by the UNIX community and > add a > > >> copy of the 3-clause BSD and maybe even the two GPLs. > > >> > > >> Then update the README in the current top-level dir. Adding to the > > >> contents something like "*the IP contained on this website is covered > by > > >> different licenses depending on the specific IP. Copies of these can > be > > >> found with the source code itself, but have also been all collected > > >> together in the top-level directory: ...*." > > >> > > >> I think these all have both historical values, as well as practical > > >> values. As I said, I was not sure myself and I think other would be > less > > >> ignorant if they could find it all easily. In the case of the > practical, > > >> a for instance, in an email with some lawyers last week, I had > pointed them > > >> at the Caldera document. I'ld have loved to have been able to say > look in > > >> this directory. The Caldera and later Nokia Licenses are what we are > > >> considering as examples. > > >> > > >> Thoughts? > > >> > > > > > -- > --- > Larry McVoy Retired to fishing > http://www.mcvoy.com/lm/boat > -- Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 4428 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Thoughts on Licenses 2022-07-02 23:54 ` Clem Cole @ 2022-07-03 2:03 ` Warner Losh 2022-07-03 2:27 ` Larry McVoy 0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread From: Warner Losh @ 2022-07-03 2:03 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Clem Cole; +Cc: Marc Donner, The Eunuchs Hysterical Society [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3950 bytes --] With spdx it would go in neither place.. spdx is prescriptive about where the bom and such resides. But one of the big issues with thus stuff is things like USENIX tapes and other similar artifacts that have unclear or no license data still extant from the time, if there ever was. Or licenses that are poorly crafted. Some items have good and clear title, but many do not. Unix itself has an unclear chain of ownership at the time the ancient licenses were granted, especially in light of rulings in some court cases (some of which conflict in their finer points). We likely do not want to be in the business of judging things beyond "we have a good faith basis to think we can distribute this" So anything that goes beyond the simple spdx stuff, with our own extensions makes me nervous. Warner On Sat, Jul 2, 2022, 5:54 PM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote: > Agreed > > On Sat, Jul 2, 2022 at 5:03 PM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote: > >> If I were looking for licenses "Copyrights+Licenses" would make me >> find, "metadata" I wouldn't think to look in. >> >> But I'm an old retired dude without many brain cells left. >> >> On Sat, Jul 02, 2022 at 02:57:31PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: >> > Before we go inventing our own thing, let's just add spdx tags and >> > metadata..... there already is a standard for this. >> > >> > Warner >> > >> > On Sat, Jul 2, 2022, 1:09 PM Marc Donner <marc.donner@gmail.com> wrote: >> > >> > > I would call that top level directory "metadata" ... the licensing >> stuff >> > > is quite relevant to the owner and operator of the system, but not >> directly >> > > relevant to any of its actual content or function. >> > > ===== >> > > nygeek.net >> > > mindthegapdialogs.com/home <https://www.mindthegapdialogs.com/home> >> > > >> > > >> > > On Sat, Jul 2, 2022 at 2:17 PM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote: >> > > >> > >> As part of some of simh work, I've been immersed in some licensing >> > >> discussions. Thanks for the V8-10, Plan-9 and Inferno notes - they >> are >> > >> relevant. >> > >> >> > >> Anyway, WRT to TUHS, I'm thinking that at least in the case of the >> Unix >> > >> style bits, I propose a small change to Waren's top-level >> directory. Add >> > >> a new dir called something like 'Legal Docs' or >> 'Copyrights+Licenses'. >> > >> Then move the Caldera document and Warren's current note into that >> area. >> > >> Then add copies of anything we can collect like the Dan Cross's >> V8-10, >> > >> anything WRT to Plan9/Inferno or anything we from the UNIX world - >> such as >> > >> something Sun, DEC or HP or like might have added. Maybe add a >> > >> subdirectory with the AT&T/USL case details. And maybe add a >> > >> sub-directory with known FOSS licenses used by the UNIX community >> and add a >> > >> copy of the 3-clause BSD and maybe even the two GPLs. >> > >> >> > >> Then update the README in the current top-level dir. Adding to the >> > >> contents something like "*the IP contained on this website is >> covered by >> > >> different licenses depending on the specific IP. Copies of these >> can be >> > >> found with the source code itself, but have also been all collected >> > >> together in the top-level directory: ...*." >> > >> >> > >> I think these all have both historical values, as well as practical >> > >> values. As I said, I was not sure myself and I think other would be >> less >> > >> ignorant if they could find it all easily. In the case of the >> practical, >> > >> a for instance, in an email with some lawyers last week, I had >> pointed them >> > >> at the Caldera document. I'ld have loved to have been able to say >> look in >> > >> this directory. The Caldera and later Nokia Licenses are what we are >> > >> considering as examples. >> > >> >> > >> Thoughts? >> > >> >> > > >> >> -- >> --- >> Larry McVoy Retired to fishing >> http://www.mcvoy.com/lm/boat >> > -- > Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 5786 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Thoughts on Licenses 2022-07-03 2:03 ` Warner Losh @ 2022-07-03 2:27 ` Larry McVoy 2022-07-03 8:11 ` steve jenkin [not found] ` <F579710B-5568-431D-92CC-88D49C3D9BE6@gmail.com> 0 siblings, 2 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Larry McVoy @ 2022-07-03 2:27 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Warner Losh; +Cc: Marc Donner, The Eunuchs Hysterical Society So I have to say "who cares?" If we were talking about a modern multi threaded, scaled SMP, NUMA aware, knows all about the latest PCI, etc, OS, yes, whoever owns that might care. I love the early Unix releases because they were so simple, processors were simple then as well. Other than as a learning tool, which is a big deal but not a financial big deal, the early Unix versions have no value. Nobody cares other than us and we're, I dunno, but I would guess in the low thosands of people. I get that we all want the licenses to be above board but really, does it matter? Is anyone going to do anything with these early releases? I worked on SCO, it was early when SunOS was around and it was not friendly compared to SunOS and SunOS is long dead. I can promise you the number of people who care about SCO source are under 100. As in the people who would actually compile it, I bet it is under 10. I'm all for doing the right thing but some of the time when people talk about the licenses, I fail to see where a lawyer or a corporation is going to care. For them to care, they would need to see a way to make money. Nobody is going to make money off of 50 year old Unix releases. Heck, nobody is going to make money off of 20 year old Unix releases. As Rob Gingell said, bits rot. On Sat, Jul 02, 2022 at 08:03:12PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > With spdx it would go in neither place.. spdx is prescriptive about where > the bom and such resides. > > But one of the big issues with thus stuff is things like USENIX tapes and > other similar artifacts that have unclear or no license data still extant > from the time, if there ever was. Or licenses that are poorly crafted. Some > items have good and clear title, but many do not. Unix itself has an > unclear chain of ownership at the time the ancient licenses were granted, > especially in light of rulings in some court cases (some of which conflict > in their finer points). We likely do not want to be in the business of > judging things beyond "we have a good faith basis to think we can > distribute this" > > So anything that goes beyond the simple spdx stuff, with our own extensions > makes me nervous. > > Warner > > On Sat, Jul 2, 2022, 5:54 PM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote: > > > Agreed > > > > On Sat, Jul 2, 2022 at 5:03 PM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote: > > > >> If I were looking for licenses "Copyrights+Licenses" would make me > >> find, "metadata" I wouldn't think to look in. > >> > >> But I'm an old retired dude without many brain cells left. > >> > >> On Sat, Jul 02, 2022 at 02:57:31PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > >> > Before we go inventing our own thing, let's just add spdx tags and > >> > metadata..... there already is a standard for this. > >> > > >> > Warner > >> > > >> > On Sat, Jul 2, 2022, 1:09 PM Marc Donner <marc.donner@gmail.com> wrote: > >> > > >> > > I would call that top level directory "metadata" ... the licensing > >> stuff > >> > > is quite relevant to the owner and operator of the system, but not > >> directly > >> > > relevant to any of its actual content or function. > >> > > ===== > >> > > nygeek.net > >> > > mindthegapdialogs.com/home <https://www.mindthegapdialogs.com/home> > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > On Sat, Jul 2, 2022 at 2:17 PM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote: > >> > > > >> > >> As part of some of simh work, I've been immersed in some licensing > >> > >> discussions. Thanks for the V8-10, Plan-9 and Inferno notes - they > >> are > >> > >> relevant. > >> > >> > >> > >> Anyway, WRT to TUHS, I'm thinking that at least in the case of the > >> Unix > >> > >> style bits, I propose a small change to Waren's top-level > >> directory. Add > >> > >> a new dir called something like 'Legal Docs' or > >> 'Copyrights+Licenses'. > >> > >> Then move the Caldera document and Warren's current note into that > >> area. > >> > >> Then add copies of anything we can collect like the Dan Cross's > >> V8-10, > >> > >> anything WRT to Plan9/Inferno or anything we from the UNIX world - > >> such as > >> > >> something Sun, DEC or HP or like might have added. Maybe add a > >> > >> subdirectory with the AT&T/USL case details. And maybe add a > >> > >> sub-directory with known FOSS licenses used by the UNIX community > >> and add a > >> > >> copy of the 3-clause BSD and maybe even the two GPLs. > >> > >> > >> > >> Then update the README in the current top-level dir. Adding to the > >> > >> contents something like "*the IP contained on this website is > >> covered by > >> > >> different licenses depending on the specific IP. Copies of these > >> can be > >> > >> found with the source code itself, but have also been all collected > >> > >> together in the top-level directory: ...*." > >> > >> > >> > >> I think these all have both historical values, as well as practical > >> > >> values. As I said, I was not sure myself and I think other would be > >> less > >> > >> ignorant if they could find it all easily. In the case of the > >> practical, > >> > >> a for instance, in an email with some lawyers last week, I had > >> pointed them > >> > >> at the Caldera document. I'ld have loved to have been able to say > >> look in > >> > >> this directory. The Caldera and later Nokia Licenses are what we are > >> > >> considering as examples. > >> > >> > >> > >> Thoughts? > >> > >> > >> > > > >> > >> -- > >> --- > >> Larry McVoy Retired to fishing > >> http://www.mcvoy.com/lm/boat > >> > > -- > > Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual > > -- --- Larry McVoy Retired to fishing http://www.mcvoy.com/lm/boat ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Thoughts on Licenses 2022-07-03 2:27 ` Larry McVoy @ 2022-07-03 8:11 ` steve jenkin [not found] ` <F579710B-5568-431D-92CC-88D49C3D9BE6@gmail.com> 1 sibling, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: steve jenkin @ 2022-07-03 8:11 UTC (permalink / raw) To: TUHS > On 3 Jul 2022, at 12:27, Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote: > > I love the early Unix releases because they were so simple, processors > were simple then as well. Bell’s Observation on Computer Classes has brought surprises - we’ve had some very popular new devices appear at the bottom end of the market and sell in the billions. Even 10yrs ago, I’d not have expected Apple to build their own Silicon & certainly not to make a high-performance system based on ARM. I’d expect more surprises will come, selling in huge numbers. An obvious application area is Networking + Storage, but many other possibilities exist. $10 interface for SATA drives to Ethernet would solve a lot of SOHO / SME storage problems, if only a local backup to the Cloud. MIT has produced ports of v6 for x86 & RISC-V - used for teaching purposes. <https://github.com/mit-pdos/xv6-public> <https://github.com/mit-pdos/xv6-riscv> Could a version of v6 or v7 run on a microcontroller? Perhaps. Not many versions of Linux run so leanly. If a product based on a microcontroller & v6/v7 became a very popular product, Copyright & Ownership might become an issue :( Even after the “SCO v IBM” case someone might see a payday. But why would anyone use "Version Zero" in what turned out to be quite a line of OS’s from Dept 1127 / CSRC?? Plan 9 or Inferno - born multi-processor, network aware and embedding 30+ years experience - would be the obvious platform for a “new small thing”. You’ve already covered on-list the Plan 9/ Inferno licensing, and there’s no impediment. While Vintage Cars are fascinating to gawk at and may be rewarding to repair & rebuild, they don’t include modern materials, designs, performance and safety. Fun for a hobby & special event, but not 1st choice for daily use. I think v6 on different platforms will have a very long life in a few areas, but is not what I’d choose for a commercial product. steve j -- Steve Jenkin, IT Systems and Design 0412 786 915 (+61 412 786 915) PO Box 38, Kippax ACT 2615, AUSTRALIA mailto:sjenkin@canb.auug.org.au http://members.tip.net.au/~sjenkin ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
[parent not found: <F579710B-5568-431D-92CC-88D49C3D9BE6@gmail.com>]
* [TUHS] Re: Thoughts on Licenses [not found] ` <F579710B-5568-431D-92CC-88D49C3D9BE6@gmail.com> @ 2022-07-03 14:39 ` Larry McVoy 2022-07-03 14:59 ` Clem Cole 0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread From: Larry McVoy @ 2022-07-03 14:39 UTC (permalink / raw) To: steve jenkin; +Cc: TUHS, Marc Donner On Sun, Jul 03, 2022 at 05:55:15PM +1000, steve jenkin wrote: > > > On 3 Jul 2022, at 12:27, Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote: > > > > I love the early Unix releases because they were so simple, processors > > were simple then as well. > > > Bell???s Observation on Computer Classes has brought surprises > - we???ve had some very popular new devices appear at the bottom end of the market and sell in the billions. Yes, and they all run Linux or some tiny OS. Has anyone ported v7 to any of these devices and seen it take off? Of course not, it doesn't have TCP/IP. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Thoughts on Licenses 2022-07-03 14:39 ` Larry McVoy @ 2022-07-03 14:59 ` Clem Cole 2022-07-03 15:30 ` Bakul Shah 0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread From: Clem Cole @ 2022-07-03 14:59 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Larry McVoy; +Cc: steve jenkin, TUHS, Marc Donner [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1245 bytes --] On Sun, Jul 3, 2022 at 10:39 AM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote: > Has anyone ported v7 to any of these devices and seen it take off? I agree with your observation BTW, but I will point out that every server based on Intel Si runs a V7 flavor called Minux in the IPMI node. WRT to Licenses - it does matter for a practical purpose. As Larry points out no one cares ... (until they do). Without going into specifics (this is a real example BTW), let's take a famous Science and Technology Museum in the EU that wants to use simh to put up a demo of traditional computing (in this case it's different from but let's say - using a PiDP-8 or PiDP-11 like display), they would like to know that it's a legitimate thing to do so. Lawyers are unlikely to look at the file called Metadata -- as I said, just last week, I would be easily able to point some of them to the top of Warren's tree for the Caldera license. The more licenses we have together in one place will make folks like that a lot more comfortable with proceeding. Again keeping the specific licenses with each release is probably a good thing (I would suggest links the master copy), just make it 100% clear we are *trying to do the right thing*. ᐧ [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 3017 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Thoughts on Licenses 2022-07-03 14:59 ` Clem Cole @ 2022-07-03 15:30 ` Bakul Shah 2022-07-03 16:26 ` Clem Cole 0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread From: Bakul Shah @ 2022-07-03 15:30 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Clem Cole; +Cc: steve jenkin, TUHS, Marc Donner On Jul 3, 2022, at 9:59 AM, Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote: > > I agree with your observation BTW, but I will point out that every server based on Intel Si runs a V7 flavor called Minux in the IPMI node. You may be thinking of MINIX 1. It was a from-scratch implementation that was syscall compatible with V7 but IIRC it didn't have any sort of memory protection as it was designed to run on 8088. What runs on the Intel Management Engine is MINIX 3, a µkernel design with NetBSD userland. As Prof. Tanenbaum said, "MINIX 1 and MINIX 3 are related in the same way as Windows 3.1 and Windows XP are: same first name". ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Thoughts on Licenses 2022-07-03 15:30 ` Bakul Shah @ 2022-07-03 16:26 ` Clem Cole 2022-07-03 16:55 ` Kevin Bowling 2022-07-03 17:48 ` Bakul Shah 0 siblings, 2 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Clem Cole @ 2022-07-03 16:26 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Bakul Shah; +Cc: steve jenkin, TUHS, Marc Donner [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1656 bytes --] On Sun, Jul 3, 2022 at 11:30 AM Bakul Shah <bakul@iitbombay.org> wrote: > You may be thinking of MINIX 1. It was a from-scratch implementation that > was syscall compatible with V7 but IIRC it didn't have any sort of memory > protection as it was designed to run on 8088. Minux and specifically M1 was and always has been, a uK. And yes, M1 does not need an MMU - since it was designed to run on an 8088. IIRC this was Linus' original objection when he wanted to run on his 386-based PC (Wyse 32:16 box, IIRC). The key was Andy wanted to teach his students about V7 without running afoul of the AT&T license as Lions had with V6. What runs on the Intel Management Engine It's called the Intelligent Platform Management Interface <https://streaklinks.com/BHBsBCyMjMy7xGTaiw4nohuO/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.intel.com%2Fcontent%2Fwww%2Fus%2Fen%2Fproducts%2Fdocs%2Fservers%2Fipmi%2Fipmi-second-gen-interface-spec-v2-rev1-1.html> - *a.k.a.* IPMI > is MINIX 3, ... with NetBSD userland. Actually, if you want to pick nits, neither statement is correct (remember for whom I work). MINIX 1 and MINIX 3 are related That's because M3 added the MMU support that M1 lacked. But there is nothing in M3 that IPMI is using other than it is the current version from Andy's team. What IPMI has as an underlying uK is heavily hacked and is a 'derivative work' - the local uk is basically providing V7 interfaces to some special programs. It made little sense to recreate something for the platform engine, and Minux was picked because it was smaller than any of the *BSDs and was not GPL'ed so Intel IP was still protected. ᐧ ᐧ [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 3979 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Thoughts on Licenses 2022-07-03 16:26 ` Clem Cole @ 2022-07-03 16:55 ` Kevin Bowling 2022-07-03 17:15 ` Clem Cole 2022-07-03 17:48 ` Bakul Shah 1 sibling, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread From: Kevin Bowling @ 2022-07-03 16:55 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Clem Cole; +Cc: Bakul Shah, Marc Donner, TUHS, steve jenkin [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2437 bytes --] On Sun, Jul 3, 2022 at 9:27 AM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote: > > > On Sun, Jul 3, 2022 at 11:30 AM Bakul Shah <bakul@iitbombay.org> wrote: > >> You may be thinking of MINIX 1. It was a from-scratch implementation that >> was syscall compatible with V7 but IIRC it didn't have any sort of memory >> protection as it was designed to run on 8088. > > Minux and specifically M1 was and always has been, a uK. And yes, M1 does > not need an MMU - since it was designed to run on an 8088. IIRC this was > Linus' original objection when he wanted to run on his 386-based PC (Wyse > 32:16 box, IIRC). The key was Andy wanted to teach his students about V7 > without running afoul of the AT&T license as Lions had with V6. > > What runs on the Intel Management Engine > > It's called the Intelligent Platform Management Interface > <https://streaklinks.com/BHBsBCyMjMy7xGTaiw4nohuO/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.intel.com%2Fcontent%2Fwww%2Fus%2Fen%2Fproducts%2Fdocs%2Fservers%2Fipmi%2Fipmi-second-gen-interface-spec-v2-rev1-1.html> > - *a.k.a.* IPMI > IPMI is an entirely different subsystem from the ME. ME runs on one of at least two superfluous x86 cores within the CPU die of intel CPUs for a while that can run Intel and vendor supervisors. When this blew up in Intel’s face several years ago Minix 3 was the latest incarnation. https://github.com/hardenedlinux/firmware-anatomy/blob/master/hack_ME/me_info.md IPMI is a sideband and could be anything including embedded Linux on a dedicated ARM SoC which is common in large scale installations. is MINIX 3, ... with NetBSD userland. > > Actually, if you want to pick nits, neither statement is correct (remember > for whom I work). > Maybe you are talking about something else. Minix 3 (Andy’s last OS) does indeed match this description, uK with NetBSD user. MINIX 1 and MINIX 3 are related > That's because M3 added the MMU support that M1 lacked. But there is > nothing in M3 that IPMI is using other than it is the current version from > Andy's team. What IPMI has as an underlying uK is heavily hacked and is a > 'derivative work' - the local uk is basically providing V7 interfaces to > some special programs. > > It made little sense to recreate something for the platform engine, and > Minux was picked because it was smaller than any of the *BSDs and was not > GPL'ed so Intel IP was still protected. > ᐧ > ᐧ > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 6610 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Thoughts on Licenses 2022-07-03 16:55 ` Kevin Bowling @ 2022-07-03 17:15 ` Clem Cole 0 siblings, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Clem Cole @ 2022-07-03 17:15 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Kevin Bowling; +Cc: Bakul Shah, Marc Donner, TUHS, steve jenkin [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 264 bytes --] On Sun, Jul 3, 2022 at 12:55 PM Kevin Bowling <kevin.bowling@kev009.com> wrote: > Maybe you are talking about something else. Minix 3 (Andy’s last OS) does > indeed match this description, uK with NetBSD user. > > Sigh .. I did not say it was not. ᐧ [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1193 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Thoughts on Licenses 2022-07-03 16:26 ` Clem Cole 2022-07-03 16:55 ` Kevin Bowling @ 2022-07-03 17:48 ` Bakul Shah 2022-07-03 19:48 ` Clem Cole 1 sibling, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread From: Bakul Shah @ 2022-07-03 17:48 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Clem Cole; +Cc: steve jenkin, TUHS, Marc Donner [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2524 bytes --] On Jul 3, 2022, at 11:26 AM, Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote: > > > > On Sun, Jul 3, 2022 at 11:30 AM Bakul Shah <bakul@iitbombay.org <mailto:bakul@iitbombay.org>> wrote: > You may be thinking of MINIX 1. It was a from-scratch implementation that was syscall compatible with V7 but IIRC it didn't have any sort of memory protection as it was designed to run on 8088. > Minux and specifically M1 was and always has been, a uK. And yes, M1 does not need an MMU - since it was designed to run on an 8088. IIRC this was Linus' original objection when he wanted to run on his 386-based PC (Wyse 32:16 box, IIRC). The key was Andy wanted to teach his students about V7 without running afoul of the AT&T license as Lions had with V6. Er.. a "microkernel" without an MMU is basically nothing more than a thread switcher (not unlike a variety of "realtime" embedded kernels like threadX and what not). > What runs on the Intel Management Engine > It's called the Intelligent Platform Management Interface <https://streaklinks.com/BHBsBCyMjMy7xGTaiw4nohuO/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.intel.com%2Fcontent%2Fwww%2Fus%2Fen%2Fproducts%2Fdocs%2Fservers%2Fipmi%2Fipmi-second-gen-interface-spec-v2-rev1-1.html> - a.k.a. IPMI > is MINIX 3, ... with NetBSD userland. > Actually, if you want to pick nits, neither statement is correct (remember for whom I work). Not sure which statements you are talking about that are incorrect. Minix3 running on ME was in the news a few years back. See for instance: https://itsfoss.com/fact-intel-minix-case/ -- Websearch reveals many articles on IME + MINIX, hardly any to IPMI + MINIX. MINIX 3 + NetBSD userland is pretty much what minix3.org website says! [And no, I was not aware of who you work for.] In any case, sounds like you were talking about something not (well)known outside of Intel. > MINIX 1 and MINIX 3 are related > That's because M3 added the MMU support that M1 lacked. But there is nothing in M3 that IPMI is using other than it is the current version from Andy's team. What IPMI has as an underlying uK is heavily hacked and is a 'derivative work' - the local uk is basically providing V7 interfaces to some special programs. I think Tanenbaum's point was that MINIX3 is nothing like MINIX1 except in name. > It made little sense to recreate something for the platform engine, and Minux was picked because it was smaller than any of the *BSDs and was not GPL'ed so Intel IP was still protected. No argument here :-) > ᐧ > ᐧ [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 6386 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Thoughts on Licenses 2022-07-03 17:48 ` Bakul Shah @ 2022-07-03 19:48 ` Clem Cole 2022-07-03 21:23 ` Matthias Bruestle 0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread From: Clem Cole @ 2022-07-03 19:48 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Bakul Shah; +Cc: steve jenkin, TUHS, Marc Donner [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1572 bytes --] On Sun, Jul 3, 2022 at 1:48 PM Bakul Shah <bakul@iitbombay.org> wrote: > Er.. a "microkernel" without an MMU is basically nothing more than a > thread switcher (not unlike a variety of "realtime" embedded kernels like > threadX and what not). > Argue with Andy and not me and read his book. Andy calls it a message-based uK. Given how they structured it. I would agree. > > I think Tanenbaum's point was that MINIX3 is *nothing* like MINIX1 except > in name. > Having talked to Andy about this in person, as well as looking at the code, I think I differ with your interpretation yes, M3 supports a ton of things M1 did not. But the core API and KPI are supersets. I also know a bit about what Intel uses for the IPMI support as part of my $ day job. Let's just say this is a great deal that is known outside of Intel and a good bit that is not and/or misunderstood. My point that started this rat hole was that Larry made a comment about V7 having little value. I know for a fact Larry's observation was not true. And how we use the core Minix subsystem (*as a basic V7 platform for a single custom application* that allows us to manage the server - as I said to Larry think the LS1-11 on the Vax and the 11/40 on the KL processors) and offered it as a counter-example. It could have been almost anything that you called a thread switcher. A simple V7 was 'good enough' and Minux supplied that for the team. In fact, I can think of other applications where V6 or V7 is more than enough for a lot of the tasks. ᐧ [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 4280 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Thoughts on Licenses 2022-07-03 19:48 ` Clem Cole @ 2022-07-03 21:23 ` Matthias Bruestle 2022-07-03 22:40 ` Clem Cole 2022-07-04 12:33 ` Paul Winalski 0 siblings, 2 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Matthias Bruestle @ 2022-07-03 21:23 UTC (permalink / raw) To: TUHS On Sun, Jul 03, 2022 at 03:48:33PM -0400, Clem Cole wrote: > single custom application* that allows us to manage the server - as I said > to Larry think the LS1-11 on the Vax and the 11/40 on the KL processors) I have a MicroVAXII with a KMV1A. Are you refering to such a card with the "LSI-11 on the Vax"? Does this mean there is a V7 running on it? I really don't know much about that card. Might have been used for I/O with an IBM 3090 in this computer. Matthias -- When You Find Out Your Normal Daily Lifestyle Is Called Quarantine ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Thoughts on Licenses 2022-07-03 21:23 ` Matthias Bruestle @ 2022-07-03 22:40 ` Clem Cole 2022-07-04 3:01 ` Norman Wilson 2022-07-04 12:33 ` Paul Winalski 1 sibling, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread From: Clem Cole @ 2022-07-03 22:40 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Matthias Bruestle; +Cc: TUHS [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 709 bytes --] Sorry for some of us old guys vax = 780 ᐧ On Sun, Jul 3, 2022 at 5:30 PM Matthias Bruestle <m@mbsks.franken.de> wrote: > On Sun, Jul 03, 2022 at 03:48:33PM -0400, Clem Cole wrote: > > single custom application* that allows us to manage the server - as I > said > > to Larry think the LS1-11 on the Vax and the 11/40 on the KL processors) > > I have a MicroVAXII with a KMV1A. Are you refering to such a card with > the "LSI-11 on the Vax"? Does this mean there is a V7 running on it? > I really don't know much about that card. Might have been used for I/O with > an IBM 3090 in this computer. > > Matthias > > -- > When You Find Out Your Normal Daily Lifestyle Is Called Quarantine > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1401 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Thoughts on Licenses 2022-07-03 22:40 ` Clem Cole @ 2022-07-04 3:01 ` Norman Wilson 0 siblings, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Norman Wilson @ 2022-07-04 3:01 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs On July 3, 2022 4:40:18 p.m. MDT, Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote: >Sorry for some of us old guys vax = 780 Did you, like me, wonder why Trump wanted exactly an original-VAX-model-number of phony votes in Georgia? Maybe someone told him that the internal DEC name for VAX/VMS, at least during early development, was Starlet, and he wanted to grab it by the SYS$SPAWN. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Thoughts on Licenses 2022-07-03 21:23 ` Matthias Bruestle 2022-07-03 22:40 ` Clem Cole @ 2022-07-04 12:33 ` Paul Winalski 1 sibling, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Paul Winalski @ 2022-07-04 12:33 UTC (permalink / raw) To: TUHS On 7/3/22, Matthias Bruestle <m@mbsks.franken.de> wrote: > On Sun, Jul 03, 2022 at 03:48:33PM -0400, Clem Cole wrote: >> single custom application* that allows us to manage the server - as I >> said >> to Larry think the LS1-11 on the Vax and the 11/40 on the KL processors) > > I have a MicroVAXII with a KMV1A. Are you refering to such a card with > the "LSI-11 on the Vax"? Does this mean there is a V7 running on it? > I really don't know much about that card. Might have been used for I/O with > an IBM 3090 in this computer. Clem is referring to the VAX-11/780 (and its follow-ons the 782 and 785), which used a LSI-11 processor (PDP-11/03) to load its microcode on power-on. IIRC the LSI-11 front end also ran the system console device (originally a LA-36 DECwriter terminal). The third generation PDP-10 CPU (the KL10) similarly had a PDP-11/40 front end that did the bootstrap loading and also acted as a peripheral device controller. -Paul W. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Thoughts on Licenses 2022-07-02 18:15 [TUHS] Thoughts on Licenses Clem Cole 2022-07-02 19:07 ` [TUHS] " Marc Donner @ 2022-07-03 21:38 ` Jay Logue via TUHS 1 sibling, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Jay Logue via TUHS @ 2022-07-03 21:38 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Clem Cole, tuhs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2532 bytes --] I think it makes sense to place standalone documents like the Caldera license in a central location. However I don't see a lot of value in placing copies of non-standalone license/copyright notices in a place other than their original locations, because all these texts have context ("/This /software is copyright ...."), which I think is important both historically and practically. Perhaps it would be better to create an index of license/copyright notices that appear in the source tree, including pointers to their containing files. Extra points for an historical analysis of the evolution/commonality of license texts as they appear over time and across Unix versions. --Jay On 7/2/2022 11:15 AM, Clem Cole wrote: > As part of some of simh work, I've been immersed in some licensing > discussions. Thanks for the V8-10, Plan-9 and Inferno notes - they > are relevant. > > Anyway, WRT to TUHS, I'm thinking that at least in the case of the > Unix style bits, I propose a small change to Waren's top-level > directory. Add a new dir called something like 'Legal Docs' or > 'Copyrights+Licenses'. Then move the Caldera document and Warren's > current note into that area. Then add copies of anything we can > collect like the Dan Cross's V8-10, anything WRT to Plan9/Inferno or > anything we from the UNIX world - such as something Sun, DEC or HP or > like might have added. Maybe add a subdirectory with the AT&T/USL > case details. And maybe add a sub-directory with known FOSS licenses > used by the UNIX community and add a copy of the 3-clause BSD and > maybe even the two GPLs. > > Then update the README in the current top-level dir. Adding to the > contents something like "/the IP contained on this website is covered > by different licenses depending on the specific IP. Copies of these > can be found with the source code itself, but have also been all > collected together in the top-level directory: .../." > > I think these all have both historical values, as well as practical > values. As I said, I was not sure myself and I think other would be > less ignorant if they could find it all easily. In the case of the > practical, a for instance, in an email with some lawyers last week, I > had pointed them at the Caldera document. I'ld have loved to have > been able to say look in this directory. The Caldera and later > Nokia Licenses are what we are considering as examples. > > Thoughts? [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 4273 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2022-07-04 12:34 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 21+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2022-07-02 18:15 [TUHS] Thoughts on Licenses Clem Cole 2022-07-02 19:07 ` [TUHS] " Marc Donner 2022-07-02 20:57 ` Warner Losh 2022-07-02 21:02 ` Larry McVoy 2022-07-02 23:54 ` Clem Cole 2022-07-03 2:03 ` Warner Losh 2022-07-03 2:27 ` Larry McVoy 2022-07-03 8:11 ` steve jenkin [not found] ` <F579710B-5568-431D-92CC-88D49C3D9BE6@gmail.com> 2022-07-03 14:39 ` Larry McVoy 2022-07-03 14:59 ` Clem Cole 2022-07-03 15:30 ` Bakul Shah 2022-07-03 16:26 ` Clem Cole 2022-07-03 16:55 ` Kevin Bowling 2022-07-03 17:15 ` Clem Cole 2022-07-03 17:48 ` Bakul Shah 2022-07-03 19:48 ` Clem Cole 2022-07-03 21:23 ` Matthias Bruestle 2022-07-03 22:40 ` Clem Cole 2022-07-04 3:01 ` Norman Wilson 2022-07-04 12:33 ` Paul Winalski 2022-07-03 21:38 ` Jay Logue via TUHS
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