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* [TUHS] Re: Unix V8 Chaosnet, any takers?
@ 2022-07-16 15:51 Noel Chiappa
  2022-07-16 17:02 ` Warner Losh
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: Noel Chiappa @ 2022-07-16 15:51 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs; +Cc: jnc

    > From: Warner Losh

    > V7 could mean a modification of net unix

What's "net unix" anyway? I know of the Net releases from CSRG, but this
much precedes that.

What did people with PDP-11 V7 who wanted TCP/IP do, anyway?

	Noel

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Re: Unix V8 Chaosnet, any takers?
  2022-07-16 15:51 [TUHS] Re: Unix V8 Chaosnet, any takers? Noel Chiappa
@ 2022-07-16 17:02 ` Warner Losh
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: Warner Losh @ 2022-07-16 17:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Noel Chiappa; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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On Sat, Jul 16, 2022 at 9:51 AM Noel Chiappa <jnc@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
wrote:

>     > From: Warner Losh
>
>     > V7 could mean a modification of net unix
>
> What's "net unix" anyway? I know of the Net releases from CSRG, but this
> much precedes that.
>

I'm referring to the University of Illinois distribution that's in TUHS as
Distributions/Early_Networking/NOSC.
Steve Holmgren led the effort, and it was quite popular. It was V6 based
(it came out in late V5 time frame,
just before V6 was released and quickly updated, the version we have
appears to be based on a pure V6
release). I have seen references to it in the ARPAnet census documents
running on both V6 and V7 (though
mostly they were silent about which version). It was NCP, not TCP/IP. I
thought this was the normal nomenclature
of the time, but I may be mistaken.


> What did people with PDP-11 V7 who wanted TCP/IP do, anyway?
>

We also have BBN's stack as well in Distributions/Early_Networking/BBN. It
appears to be for an 11/40, 11/45
or 11/70, though that's based purely on different files having '70', '45'
and '40' in their name. These are also based
on V6 (at least the code we have has a V6 layout and the few files I diff'd
to V6 were pretty close). There's also an
early VAX version in that directory as well.

One could adapt either of these to V7, and I seem to recall seeing
references to people that did that in the stuff
I read for some of my early Unix talks, but I can't seem to find it right
now.

Warner

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Re: Unix V8 Chaosnet, any takers?
@ 2022-07-18 17:07 Noel Chiappa
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: Noel Chiappa @ 2022-07-18 17:07 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs; +Cc: jnc

    > From: Ron Natalie

    > We had NCP running on the JHU kernel

Which NCP implementation was that, the one from UIUC, or something else? (I'm
curious about the one that someone here - I forget who - mentioned, where
IIRC they thought it was a new one, not the UIUC one. I'm a little boggled
that with so little use for one - there weren't many NCP sites - someone
would have gone to all the work to do another one. But it's possible...)


If you all used the UIUC one, what did you call it? I looked through the email
about releases from NOSC (who seemed to be the focal point for maintaining
it at one point):

  https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=SRI-NOSC/new/dist.log

but it doesn't give a name for it. The documentation:

  https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=SRI-NOSC/doc/IllinoisNCP.nr

doesn't either (other than 'Illinois NCP').


It does seem that they were semi-using V7; see e.g.:

  https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=SRI-NOSC/green/c.c

but the code looks very V6-ish; see e.g.:

  https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=SRI-NOSC/ken/text.c


	Noel

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Re: Unix V8 Chaosnet, any takers?
  2022-07-17 23:39 Noel Chiappa
@ 2022-07-18  1:01 ` Ron Natalie
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: Ron Natalie @ 2022-07-18  1:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: jnc; +Cc: tuhs

We had NCP running on the JHU kernel which essentially a V6 kernel with extra stuff (including the ability to mount both V6 and V7 disks).  This was done on an 11/34 at Xmas time 1982 when the Arpanet went to long leaders and the UofIll ANTS we had became obsolete. 

> On Jul 17, 2022, at 19:40, jnc@mercury.lcs.mit.edu wrote:
> 
> 
>> 
>> From: Warner Losh
> 
>>> What's "net unix" anyway?
> 
>> I'm referring to the University of Illinois distribution
> 
> Ah, OK.
> 
>> I have seen references to it in the ARPAnet census documents running on
>> both V6 and V7 (though mostly they were silent about which version).
> 
> Well, V7 came out in January, 1979, and NCP wasn't turned off until January,
> 1983, so people had a lot of time to get it running under V7.
> 
>> I thought this was the normal nomenclature of the time, but I may be
>> mistaken.
> 
> I'm not sure what it was usually called; we didn't have much contact with it
> at MIT (although I had the source; I'm the one that provided it to TUHS).
> 
> The problem was that although MIT had two IMPs, all the ports on them were
> spoken for, for big time-sharing mainframes (4 PDP-10's running ITS; 1
> running TWENEX; a Multics), so there were no ports available to plug in a
> lowly PDP-11. (We were unable to get an IP gateway (router) onto the ARPANET
> until MIT got some of the first C/30 IMPs.) So we had no use for the NCP Unix
> (which I vaguely recall was described as 'the ARPANET Unix from UIll').
> 
>    Noel


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Re: Unix V8 Chaosnet, any takers?
@ 2022-07-17 23:39 Noel Chiappa
  2022-07-18  1:01 ` Ron Natalie
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: Noel Chiappa @ 2022-07-17 23:39 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs; +Cc: jnc

    > From: Warner Losh

    >> What's "net unix" anyway?

    >  I'm referring to the University of Illinois distribution

Ah, OK.

    > I have seen references to it in the ARPAnet census documents running on
    > both V6 and V7 (though mostly they were silent about which version).

Well, V7 came out in January, 1979, and NCP wasn't turned off until January,
1983, so people had a lot of time to get it running under V7.

    > I thought this was the normal nomenclature of the time, but I may be
    > mistaken.

I'm not sure what it was usually called; we didn't have much contact with it
at MIT (although I had the source; I'm the one that provided it to TUHS).

The problem was that although MIT had two IMPs, all the ports on them were
spoken for, for big time-sharing mainframes (4 PDP-10's running ITS; 1
running TWENEX; a Multics), so there were no ports available to plug in a
lowly PDP-11. (We were unable to get an IP gateway (router) onto the ARPANET
until MIT got some of the first C/30 IMPs.) So we had no use for the NCP Unix
(which I vaguely recall was described as 'the ARPANET Unix from UIll').

	Noel

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Re: Unix V8 Chaosnet, any takers?
@ 2022-07-16 20:02 Paul Ruizendaal
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: Paul Ruizendaal @ 2022-07-16 20:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

Apologies for being off-topic

> What did people with PDP-11 V7 who wanted TCP/IP do, anyway?

Taking it slightly broader (PDP-11 instead of V7), there is a lot of discussion about that on Mike Meuss’ TCP-digest mailing list:

https://ftp.ripe.net/rfc/museum/tcp-ip-digest/

There is a 1985 index of available implementations as well ( https://ftp.ripe.net/rfc/museum/tcp-ip-implementations.txt.1 ). It includes the following options for PDP-11 systems:


1.7.5. UNIX 2.9BSD

DESCRIPTION:

       2.9BSD TCP/IP is an adaptation  of  Berkeley's  original  VAX
    TCP/IP  (running  under  BSD  4.1B  UNIX)  which  in  turn is an
    offshoot of BBN's VAX TCP/IP.  2.9BSD TCP/IP runs on  PDP-11/44s
    and  PDP-11/70s.    The 2.8 version from SRI was adapted by Bill
    Croft (formerly at SRI), then  Tektronix  adapted  it  for  2.9.
    Berkeley  took  over modification of the software and brought it
    back to SRI where Dan Chernikoff and Greg Satz adapted it for  a
    later  release  of 2.9.  In addition to TCP/IP, UDP, ARP and the
    raw packet  interface  is  available.  ICMP  redirects  are  not
    supported.    User  software  implementations include Telnet and
    FTP, plus Berkeley-developed local  net  protocols,  RWHO,  RSH,
    RLOGIN, and RCP.

       2.9BSD  with  TCP/IP support could probably be made to run on
    smaller PDP-11s although the address space would be  very  tight
    and might present problems.


1.7.6. Venix/11 TCP/IP

DESCRIPTION:

       This  is  based  on  the "PDP-11/45" implementation available
    from the MIT Laboratory for  Computer  Science.    It  has  been
    ported  to  a V7 UNIX system, in particular VenturCom's Venix/11
    V2.0.

       As little of the processing as possible takes  place  in  the
    kernel,   to   minimize  the  code  space  required.    It  fits
    comfortably on I&D machines,  but  is  almost  hopeless  on  the
    smaller  machines.   The kernel includes a proNET device driver,
    IP fragment reassembly, IP header processing,  local-net  header
    processing,  and simple routing.  The rest of the IP processing,
    and all of the UDP and TCP functions,  are  in  user  libraries.
    The psuedo-teletype driver is also in the kernel, and is used by
    Server TELNET.

       User programs handle ICMP processing; User and Server TELNET,
    SMTP,  TFTP,  Finger,  and Discard.  There are User programs for
    Nicname and Hostname.   IEN-116  nameservers  are  used  by  all
    programs,  and  an IEN-116 nameserver is also provided.  The TCP
    used is very simple, not very fast, and lies about windows.   No
    FTP is available, nor is one currently planned.


1.7.8. BBN-V6-UNIX

DESCRIPTION:

       This  TCP/IP/ICMP  implementation  runs  as a user process in
    version 6 UNIX, with modifications obtained from BBN for network
    access.  IP  reassembles  fragments  into  datagrams, but has no
    separate IP user  interface.    TCP  supports  user  and  server
    Telnet,  echo,  discard,  internet  SMTP  mail,  and  FTP.  ICMP
    generates replies to Echo Requests, and sends Source-Quench when
    reassembly buffers are full.

       1. Hardware  -  PDP-11/70 and PDP-11/45 running UNIX version
          6, with BBN IPC additions.

       2. Software - written in C, requiring 25K instruction space,
          20K  data  space.    Supports  10  connections (including
          "listeners").

       3. Unimplemented protocol features:

             - TCP - Discards out-of-order segments.

             - IP - Does not handle some options and ICMP messages.


1.7.9. v 3COM-UNET

DESCRIPTION:

       UNET is a communication software package which  enables  UNIX
    systems  to  communicate  using  TCP/IP  protocols.    UNET will
    utilize any physical communications media, from low speed  links
    such as twisted pair RS-232C to high speed coaxial links such as
    Ethernet.  All layers of the UNET package are directly available
    to   the  user.    The  highest  layer  provides  user  programs
    implementing  ARPA  standard  File  Transfer  Protocol   (UFTP),
    Virtual  Terminal  Protocol  (UVTP), and Mail Transfer Protocols
    (UMTP).  These programs in  turn  utilize  the  virtual  circuit
    services  of the TCP.  The TCP protocol is implemented on top of
    the IP.  Finally, IP can simultaneously  interface  to  multiple
    local  networks.    UNET  implements  5  of  the 7 layers of the
    International    Standards     Organization     Open     Systems
    Interconnection  Reference  Model,  layers  2  through  6: Link,
    Network, Transport, Session, and Presentation.  Features of  TCP
    6   not   yet   implemented   are   Precedence   and   Security,
    End-of-Letter, and Urgent.  Feature of IP 4 not yet  implemented
    is Options.


Of these, we have 2.9BSD and (a forerunner of) BBN-V6-Unix available on the TUHS Unix Tree. The Venix/11 source and the 3COM source appear lost. These (unfortunately) are the ones that were implemented on top of V7.

Also, BBN back-ported the TCP/IP code of BBN VAX-TCP to V7 for their C/70 Unix.







^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Re: Unix V8 Chaosnet, any takers?
  2022-07-16  6:38           ` Lars Brinkhoff
@ 2022-07-16 14:05             ` Warner Losh
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: Warner Losh @ 2022-07-16 14:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Lars Brinkhoff; +Cc: segaloco, The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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On Sat, Jul 16, 2022, 12:38 AM Lars Brinkhoff <lars@nocrew.org> wrote:

> segaloco wrote:
> > This looks like it might be exactly what you're looking for:
> > http://9legacy.org/9legacy/doc/simh/v8
>
> Thanks!
>
> > That said, your original posting mentions the PDP-11, but also
> > "Berkeley Unix Nodes". For the latter, do you mean VAX?
>
> Yes, they are VAX-11/780 SIMH instances running 4.1BSD + MIT patches.
>
> > I don't know whether V8 ran on PDP-11 or not, but if that's your
> > intent, you may want to start with a 2.xBSD or V7 as a base instead.
>
> The Chaosnet documentation says there were PDP-11 Unix V7 nodes on the
> network.  That code has not been found though.  Same goes for VAX/VMS.
>

V7 could mean a modification of net unix or using that as a starting point.
But without code that's just wild speculation on my part.

Warner

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* [TUHS] Re: Unix V8 Chaosnet, any takers?
  2022-07-15 10:25 Noel Chiappa
  2022-07-15 11:53 ` Theodore Ts'o
@ 2022-07-16  6:59 ` Lars Brinkhoff
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: Lars Brinkhoff @ 2022-07-16  6:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Noel Chiappa; +Cc: tuhs

Noel Chiappa wrote:
> > There is a small hobbyist Chaos network going
> What encapsulation are they using to transmit CHAOS packets (over the
> Internet, I assume)?

There are several methods to encapsulate packets for transmission
locally or over the Internet:

- EtherType 0x0804
- IP protocol 0x10 (yours!)
- Unix domain socket
- UDP
- TLS over TCP/IP (preferred transport across Internet)

There is a bridge/router that understands all these, written by
professor Björn Victor.  Various computer hardware and emulators support
different encapsulations: real Lispms use Ethernet, an LMI Lambda
emulator uses IP, KLH10 and SIMH use the UDP method, and the PDP-10/X
FPGA uses a Unix socket.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Re: Unix V8 Chaosnet, any takers?
  2022-07-14 21:50         ` segaloco via TUHS
@ 2022-07-16  6:38           ` Lars Brinkhoff
  2022-07-16 14:05             ` Warner Losh
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: Lars Brinkhoff @ 2022-07-16  6:38 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: segaloco; +Cc: tuhs

segaloco wrote:
> This looks like it might be exactly what you're looking for:
> http://9legacy.org/9legacy/doc/simh/v8

Thanks!

> That said, your original posting mentions the PDP-11, but also
> "Berkeley Unix Nodes". For the latter, do you mean VAX?

Yes, they are VAX-11/780 SIMH instances running 4.1BSD + MIT patches.

> I don't know whether V8 ran on PDP-11 or not, but if that's your
> intent, you may want to start with a 2.xBSD or V7 as a base instead.

The Chaosnet documentation says there were PDP-11 Unix V7 nodes on the
network.  That code has not been found though.  Same goes for VAX/VMS.


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Re: Unix V8 Chaosnet, any takers?
  2022-07-15 10:25 Noel Chiappa
@ 2022-07-15 11:53 ` Theodore Ts'o
  2022-07-16  6:59 ` Lars Brinkhoff
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: Theodore Ts'o @ 2022-07-15 11:53 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Noel Chiappa; +Cc: tuhs

On Fri, Jul 15, 2022 at 06:25:37AM -0400, Noel Chiappa wrote:
> 
> There was a spec for encapsulating IP in CHAOS, and that actually _was_
> implemented at MIT BITD; it was used for a while to get IP traffic to a Unix
> machine (V7, IIRC) over on main campus, at a stage when only CHAOS hardware
> (very confusing that the same name was applied to hardware, and a protocol
> suite) ran across to main campus from Tech Square.

As I recall it was possible to access Chaosnet from Project Athena
VAX/750's running BSD 4.3, so presumably Chaosnet was ported into the
BSD 4.3 kernel at one point.  It wasn't used for anything official,
but there were folks who were using it to access Tech Square machines
from the SIPB office in 11-205 (on the main campus) as late as 1991 or
so.

							- Ted

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Re: Unix V8 Chaosnet, any takers?
@ 2022-07-15 10:25 Noel Chiappa
  2022-07-15 11:53 ` Theodore Ts'o
  2022-07-16  6:59 ` Lars Brinkhoff
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: Noel Chiappa @ 2022-07-15 10:25 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs; +Cc: jnc

    > From: Lars Brinkhoff

    > There is a small hobbyist Chaos network going

What encapsulation are they using to transmit CHAOS packets (over the
Internet, I assume)? I know there was an IP protocol number assigned for
CHAOS (16.), but I don't recall if there was ever a spec? (Which is kind of
amusing, since in 'Assigned Numbers', the person responsible for 16. is ....
me! :-)

There was a spec for encapsulating IP in CHAOS, and that actually _was_
implemented at MIT BITD; it was used for a while to get IP traffic to a Unix
machine (V7, IIRC) over on main campus, at a stage when only CHAOS hardware
(very confusing that the same name was applied to hardware, and a protocol
suite) ran across to main campus from Tech Square.


    > From: Grant Taylor

    > I wonder if there is an opportunity for something that pretends to be
    > the remote side locally, sends the data via some other
    > non-latency-sensitive protocol to a counter part where the counter part
    > pretends to be the near side.

Let's think through the details. The near-end 'invisibility box' (let's call
it) is going to have to send acks to the original source machine, otherwise
that will time out, abort the connection, etc. The originating machine is its
own thing, and this behaviour can't be controlled/stopped.

(This, BTW, shows a key difference between 'local' and 'across network'
modes, a recent topic here; in a situation where two distinct machines are
cooperating across a network, the other machine is its own entity, and can't
be expected/guaranteed to do anything in particular at all.)

In addition, the near-end invisibility box is going to have to keep a copy of
each packet, until the destination machine sends an ack to the invisibility
box - because if the packet is lost, the invisibility box is going to have to
retransmit it. (The original source is not going to - it's already gotten an
ack, so as far as it's concerned, that packet is done and dusted.) And the
near-end invisibility box is also going to have to have to have a time-out
timer, so that when the ack isn't seen, it will know to retransmit the packet.

There's no point to _also_ sending the acks on to the originating machine;
they won't do anything useful, and might just confuse it.

So, let's see now: the near-end invisibility box buffers the packet, looks
for an ack, times out when it doesn't see it, re-transmits the packet - that
sounds familiar? Oh, right, it's a reliable connection.

And presumably there's an invisibility box at the far end too, so the same
can happen for any data packets the destination machine sends.

The only question is whether, when doing the detailed design, there's any
point to having the destination machine's acks sent to the near-end
invisibility box - or just use them at the far-end invisibility box. (I.e.
create three reliable connections: i) a CHAOS connection originating
machine<->near-end invisibility box; ii) {whatever} near-end invisibility
ox<->far-end invisibility box; iii) CHAOS far-end invisibility box<->original
destination machine - and glue them together.)

That is in some sense simpler than creating an extra-ordinary mechanism to
have a 'helper' box in the middle of the connection (to terminate the CHAOS
connection from the original machine, and have another CHAOS connection, but
with an enhanced time-out mechanism which can cope with larger RTT's, from
there to the original destination); and the same in the other direction.


The amusing thing is that the CHAOS protocol stack actually already had
something very similar to this, BITD. If one were sitting at a machine that
only had CHAOS, and one wanted to (say) TELNET to an ARPANET host, there was
a CHAOS service which ARPANET hosts on the CHAOSNET provided: open a CHAOS
connection to that serrver, and it would open an NCP connection to one's
intended ultimate destination, and glue the byte streams together. (The
ultimate destination was passed as data over the CHAOS connection, when
opening it.)

	Noel

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Re: Unix V8 Chaosnet, any takers?
@ 2022-07-15  8:51 Paul Ruizendaal via TUHS
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: Paul Ruizendaal via TUHS @ 2022-07-15  8:51 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

> Message: 6
> Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2022 17:51:39 +0000
> From: segaloco <segaloco@protonmail.com>
> 
> Given V8 being rebased on 4(.1?)BSD, I suspect the path of least resistance would be to just start grafting V8 code onto the working 4.1BSD.

I doubt that V8 is "rebased on 4(.1?)BSD": in my understanding it ported some code from 4xBSD, but it is a different code base.

As I currently understand it, the V8 kernel:

- is a further development from 32V
- retains the code organisation of the V5..32V versions
- adds virtual memory code from BSD
- adds select() from BSD

and then adds all the V8 innovation on top of that (streams, file system switch, virtual proc file system, networking, remote file system, support for the Blit terminal, etc.)

In particular in the area of networking the V8 kernel is organised quite differently from the 4xBSD kernel, including the Chaosnet driver (i.e. it is streams based).

Paul


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Re: Unix V8 Chaosnet, any takers?
  2022-07-15  0:33             ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
@ 2022-07-15  4:29               ` Erik E. Fair
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: Erik E. Fair @ 2022-07-15  4:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Grant Taylor; +Cc: tuhs

Grant,

You've just described a useful piece of old ARPANET hardware: the Advanced Communications Corp (ACC) Error Control Unit (ECU). ARPANET IMP 1822 (serial) interface could be "local host" (30 feet, unbalanced serial), or "distant host" (up to 2,000 feet, balanced serial).

One used a pair of ACC ECUs - one at the IMP end, one at the host end, with potentially arbitrary distance inbetween the ECUs, so as to obviate the 1822 LH/DH limits.

I managed such a setup at LLNL in 1986 (MILNET, IMP #21): when I was hired, the group I hired into (well, put under contract to by CDC Professional Services) was on-site at the lab, but as the wires ran between the old AEC instrument trailer that was our machine room for a VAX-11/780 and PDP-11/70 (both running BSD, natch) and the Magnetic Fusion Energy Computer Center (MFE CC) where the IMP was located was rather longer than 1822 DH could handle.

A 3002 circuit ("dry" pairs) and a pair of LADDS high-speed modems did the trick there.

Later, my group moved to the Hacienda Business Park in Pleasanton, some miles away; we set up a Pac*Bell 56Kb/s (DS0) leased line with standard CSU/DSUs to connect the ACC ECUs and in turn the host (well, router) to our port on the IMP. I had some trouble getting that one going again because the ACC ECU manuals were ... disjoint: simple recipies for setting DIP switches (with no explanation of why), and a complete schematic in the back, which was useless to me because I'm not an EE, but the documented switch settings for our desired setup didn't work. ACC sent two engineers to our site from Santa Barbara to solve the problem - the senior one was the last engineer to issue an Engineering Change Order (ECO) on the ECUs.

To bring this back to a Unix context, that sort of "spoofers in the middle" was also the shtick of Telebit Trailblazer modems for the UUCP "g" protocol in UUCP/USENET days - 19.2Kb/s in one direction at a time, and the modems "knew" the "g" protocol and spoofed it for maximum speed in one direction, which was the way UUCP worked too: file transfers were handled one direction at a time, and just ACKs coming back. Internally, they effectively provided an optimized UUCP tunnel atop their quite tenacious Packetized Ensemble Protocol (PEP).

	Erik

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Re: Unix V8 Chaosnet, any takers?
  2022-07-14 20:39           ` Ron Natalie
@ 2022-07-15  0:33             ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2022-07-15  4:29               ` Erik E. Fair
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: Grant Taylor via TUHS @ 2022-07-15  0:33 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

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On 7/14/22 2:39 PM, Ron Natalie wrote:
> It can do subnets, but it can’t deal with long haul (over the greater 
> internet) time delays.

I wonder if there is an opportunity for something that pretends to be 
the remote side locally, sends the data via some other 
non-latency-sensitive protocol to a counter part where the counter part 
pretends to be the near side.

Local         /
              /
[A]----[B]==/==[C]---[D]
            /
           /       Remote

Where ---- is Chaosnet over a short distance and ==/== is something else 
over a long distance.  B would pretend to be D so that A could talk to 
D' in a timely manner and conversely C would pretend to be A so that A' 
could talk to D in a timely manner.

I've seen such spoofing / emulation in other protocols.  Maybe the prior 
art can work for Chaosnet.

P.S. Hopefully my ASCII art will survive the trip.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Re: Unix V8 Chaosnet, any takers?
  2022-07-14 19:36       ` Lars Brinkhoff
@ 2022-07-14 21:50         ` segaloco via TUHS
  2022-07-16  6:38           ` Lars Brinkhoff
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: segaloco via TUHS @ 2022-07-14 21:50 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Lars Brinkhoff; +Cc: tuhs

This looks like it might be exactly what you're looking for:

http://9legacy.org/9legacy/doc/simh/v8

Steps to start with a 4.1BSD base in simh and use that to ultimately produce a V8 system. I haven't audited these instructions myself, so YMMV, but I suspect someone wouldn't go through the hard work if this didn't do anything.

That said, your original posting mentions the PDP-11, but also "Berkeley Unix Nodes". For the latter, do you mean VAX? These instructions are for VAX too, I don't know whether V8 ran on PDP-11 or not, but if that's your intent, you may want to start with a 2.xBSD or V7 as a base instead.

- Matt G.

------- Original Message -------
On Thursday, July 14th, 2022 at 12:36 PM, Lars Brinkhoff <lars@nocrew.org> wrote:


> segaloco wrote:
>
> > What sort of help are you looking for? I've got idle fingers in the
> > evenings lately, if you just need some code junkies to work on things
> > I'm happy to throw my hat in the ring.
>
>
> I'm mainly curious if the V8 code works. I haven't examined it at all,
> so I have no idea.
>
> For reference, I have a disk image with 4.1BSD patched and ready to
> run with SIMH here:
> http://lars.nocrew.org/tmp/Chaotic-4.1BSD.tar.bz2
>
> I collected all the bits and pieces here and intended to make
> an expect script to install, patch, and build everything. I didn't
> the script but all the stuff should be here:
> https://github.com/Chaosnet/Chaosnet-for-4.1BSD

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Re: Unix V8 Chaosnet, any takers?
  2022-07-14 20:32         ` Tom Teixeira
@ 2022-07-14 20:39           ` Ron Natalie
  2022-07-15  0:33             ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: Ron Natalie @ 2022-07-14 20:39 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Tom Teixeira, tuhs

It can do subnets, but it can’t deal with long haul (over the greater 
internet) time delays.


------ Original Message ------
From "Tom Teixeira" <tjteixeira@earthlink.net>
To tuhs@tuhs.org
Date 7/14/2022 4:32:55 PM
Subject [TUHS] Re: Unix V8 Chaosnet, any takers?

>On 7/14/22 2:19 PM, Ron Natalie wrote:
>>Note, I don’t know what you’re planning, but Chaos couldn’t take any propagation delay.   It’s really limited to a LAN implementation as originally designed.
>>
>It definitely had subnet routing, and as I recall, the KL10's and other machines with front end I/O processors generally used chaosnet routing between the host itself and the rest of the network. i.e. the I/O processor was on one subnet, the host on a second subnet and the rest of the "LAN" was on the other side of the I/O processor. My recollection is that unlike an IP router, a Chaosnet node had only one address, and routing tables determined which device to send the data on.
>
>And LCS definitely had multiple coax cable runs with each run a subnet with routing between. But with a maximum of 256 subnets, routing was much simpler.
>
>I wonder how much benefit is available from using network switches rather than collision detection and retransmit, though the virtual token was supposed to reduce collisions somewhat.
>


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Re: Unix V8 Chaosnet, any takers?
  2022-07-14 18:19       ` Ron Natalie
@ 2022-07-14 20:32         ` Tom Teixeira
  2022-07-14 20:39           ` Ron Natalie
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: Tom Teixeira @ 2022-07-14 20:32 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On 7/14/22 2:19 PM, Ron Natalie wrote:
> Note, I don’t know what you’re planning, but Chaos couldn’t take any 
> propagation delay.   It’s really limited to a LAN implementation as 
> originally designed.
>
It definitely had subnet routing, and as I recall, the KL10's and other 
machines with front end I/O processors generally used chaosnet routing 
between the host itself and the rest of the network. i.e. the I/O 
processor was on one subnet, the host on a second subnet and the rest of 
the "LAN" was on the other side of the I/O processor. My recollection is 
that unlike an IP router, a Chaosnet node had only one address, and 
routing tables determined which device to send the data on.

And LCS definitely had multiple coax cable runs with each run a subnet 
with routing between. But with a maximum of 256 subnets, routing was 
much simpler.

I wonder how much benefit is available from using network switches 
rather than collision detection and retransmit, though the virtual token 
was supposed to reduce collisions somewhat.


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Re: Unix V8 Chaosnet, any takers?
  2022-07-14 17:51     ` segaloco via TUHS
  2022-07-14 18:19       ` Ron Natalie
@ 2022-07-14 19:36       ` Lars Brinkhoff
  2022-07-14 21:50         ` segaloco via TUHS
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: Lars Brinkhoff @ 2022-07-14 19:36 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: segaloco; +Cc: tuhs

segaloco wrote:
> What sort of help are you looking for? I've got idle fingers in the
> evenings lately, if you just need some code junkies to work on things
> I'm happy to throw my hat in the ring.

I'm mainly curious if the V8 code works.  I haven't examined it at all,
so I have no idea.

For reference, I have a disk image with 4.1BSD patched and ready to
run with SIMH here:
http://lars.nocrew.org/tmp/Chaotic-4.1BSD.tar.bz2

I collected all the bits and pieces here and intended to make
an expect script to install, patch, and build everything.  I didn't
the script but all the stuff should be here:
https://github.com/Chaosnet/Chaosnet-for-4.1BSD

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Re: Unix V8 Chaosnet, any takers?
  2022-07-14 17:51     ` segaloco via TUHS
@ 2022-07-14 18:19       ` Ron Natalie
  2022-07-14 20:32         ` Tom Teixeira
  2022-07-14 19:36       ` Lars Brinkhoff
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: Ron Natalie @ 2022-07-14 18:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: segaloco, Lars Brinkhoff; +Cc: tuhs

Note, I don’t know what you’re planning, but Chaos couldn’t take any 
propagation delay.   It’s really limited to a LAN implementation as 
originally designed.


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Re: Unix V8 Chaosnet, any takers?
  2022-07-14 17:00   ` Lars Brinkhoff
@ 2022-07-14 17:51     ` segaloco via TUHS
  2022-07-14 18:19       ` Ron Natalie
  2022-07-14 19:36       ` Lars Brinkhoff
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: segaloco via TUHS @ 2022-07-14 17:51 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Lars Brinkhoff; +Cc: tuhs

Given V8 being rebased on 4(.1?)BSD, I suspect the path of least resistance would be to just start grafting V8 code onto the working 4.1BSD.

What sort of help are you looking for? I've got idle fingers in the evenings lately, if you just need some code junkies to work on things I'm happy to throw my hat in the ring.

- Matt G.

------- Original Message -------
On Thursday, July 14th, 2022 at 10:00 AM, Lars Brinkhoff <lars@nocrew.org> wrote:


> John Floren wrote:
>
> > A network of lisp machines and PDP-10/11 systems seems pretty
> > cool... is there a web site for the network?
>
>
> Yes, it's here:
> https://chaosnet.net/
>
> And there's a GitHub organization:
> https://github.com/Chaosnet/
>
> To keep this on topic, known Unix implementations of Chaosnet include
> 4.1BSD (up and running), V8 (available but not running), and V7 (not
> found yet).

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Re: Unix V8 Chaosnet, any takers?
  2022-07-14 16:37 ` [TUHS] " John Floren
@ 2022-07-14 17:00   ` Lars Brinkhoff
  2022-07-14 17:51     ` segaloco via TUHS
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: Lars Brinkhoff @ 2022-07-14 17:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: John Floren; +Cc: tuhs

John Floren wrote:
> A network of lisp machines and PDP-10/11 systems seems pretty
> cool... is there a web site for the network?

Yes, it's here:
https://chaosnet.net/

And there's a GitHub organization:
https://github.com/Chaosnet/

To keep this on topic, known Unix implementations of Chaosnet include
4.1BSD (up and running), V8 (available but not running), and V7 (not
found yet).

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Re: Unix V8 Chaosnet, any takers?
  2022-07-14 11:08 [TUHS] " Lars Brinkhoff
@ 2022-07-14 16:37 ` John Floren
  2022-07-14 17:00   ` Lars Brinkhoff
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: John Floren @ 2022-07-14 16:37 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On 7/14/22 04:08, Lars Brinkhoff wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Unix V8 has some code for Chaosnet support.  There is a small hobbyist
> Chaos network going with Lispm, PDP-10, PDP-11, and Berkeley Unix nodes.
> Is there anyone who would be interested in trying to see if the V8 code
> is in a workable state, and get it running?
>
> Best regards,
> Lars Brinkhoff

A network of lisp machines and PDP-10/11 systems seems pretty cool... is
there a web site for the network?

john


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2022-07-18 17:07 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 22+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2022-07-16 15:51 [TUHS] Re: Unix V8 Chaosnet, any takers? Noel Chiappa
2022-07-16 17:02 ` Warner Losh
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2022-07-18 17:07 Noel Chiappa
2022-07-17 23:39 Noel Chiappa
2022-07-18  1:01 ` Ron Natalie
2022-07-16 20:02 Paul Ruizendaal
2022-07-15 10:25 Noel Chiappa
2022-07-15 11:53 ` Theodore Ts'o
2022-07-16  6:59 ` Lars Brinkhoff
2022-07-15  8:51 Paul Ruizendaal via TUHS
2022-07-14 11:08 [TUHS] " Lars Brinkhoff
2022-07-14 16:37 ` [TUHS] " John Floren
2022-07-14 17:00   ` Lars Brinkhoff
2022-07-14 17:51     ` segaloco via TUHS
2022-07-14 18:19       ` Ron Natalie
2022-07-14 20:32         ` Tom Teixeira
2022-07-14 20:39           ` Ron Natalie
2022-07-15  0:33             ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
2022-07-15  4:29               ` Erik E. Fair
2022-07-14 19:36       ` Lars Brinkhoff
2022-07-14 21:50         ` segaloco via TUHS
2022-07-16  6:38           ` Lars Brinkhoff
2022-07-16 14:05             ` Warner Losh

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