From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FROM,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 32276 invoked from network); 2 Jan 2023 19:22:27 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 2 Jan 2023 19:22:27 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D53964246A; Tue, 3 Jan 2023 05:22:21 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-oa1-f48.google.com (mail-oa1-f48.google.com [209.85.160.48]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D1B29423B6 for ; Tue, 3 Jan 2023 05:22:17 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-oa1-f48.google.com with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-1441d7d40c6so34560900fac.8 for ; Mon, 02 Jan 2023 11:22:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=in-reply-to:content-disposition:mime-version:references:message-id :subject:to:from:date:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=lA/jtZ4Ux0jYKDYvOys/s1e6Hzqb2Lpp/L3OxjPWKtI=; b=NwyQX7Br1sXUYz22mawMZ2joTSf/oHVEpn05LNyGfV6RyA9LKOnfJopTrSud9O7CZg +35nUCMY2UwBjfosPyELAPXLeBQDYCtxfQrPjcj9M+7v80cN8xnoyj0PHWNlL6HNw+ig UuueziUwE2eM6aZMPdMIYG7JndaciSDlq7FuWCbExnGyi9ZHXm/3MjZKOKs0+Cgg5OlL fSo5mXBonYeZBcX5Ool+qd4vSz9diCd0z1454VUMAgbA/RtPb6b81B7U/S72KXHPsAoZ HFvQCcTu1IHJ0iJGVZzsN4gwwtbKm1xC3kHHumxg74miu/asVdioDM5uuyXbwOZqVbrO yXIg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=in-reply-to:content-disposition:mime-version:references:message-id :subject:to:from:date:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=lA/jtZ4Ux0jYKDYvOys/s1e6Hzqb2Lpp/L3OxjPWKtI=; b=Vnre5XzIDewTaTjDCZf0C/TqqcN7el0FamY1eKQGVCRoCBuu4KmyM21u363eor8Xj2 e39ExNuxOrOKRltFnnIzdnmkXJv308ozLj1eGL8LGPxAfo4q5i96pTNVUYVZ7gQcOEIW 8iAxtSZstzRyB+uJjjpwFY4kTo13cIKrpYECE0JcwRLcxDa2XSkjgiZHz/6UXKTYUclf gkCDMYwPjaCw2JeJWkXwhaG7zDLbZSxTcKWlF6hVxCO+Ky7aOZEaqVj3fEaLjgrV6SWV 7K5dg/KQIgWSvkJCNQfurcsq+OIld2IWRy5NHS4HJ2Qm7cMj8TCdYchtqcrre03Gy4QG 04xw== X-Gm-Message-State: AFqh2krPwG/DGpeFweZzfL4jY7vkTZpV1idCp3J2I5J3PGf+Bj3bM7tX KQZiNXjg2HTCrOlXjsouqZ8FOBvV+1VUGw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMrXdXvOPpODSPa3n/BywyKA5hjV4aP9g+nxr7H6g14vRjDnVQsY+fiet++YxhQaCND3j7E+mWNPSQ== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6870:8996:b0:14f:c6f4:ca3e with SMTP id f22-20020a056870899600b0014fc6f4ca3emr14932202oaq.0.1672687276987; Mon, 02 Jan 2023 11:21:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from illithid (ip68-12-97-90.ok.ok.cox.net. [68.12.97.90]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id ek12-20020a056870f60c00b001447602267esm13122031oab.41.2023.01.02.11.21.16 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Mon, 02 Jan 2023 11:21:16 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2023 13:21:14 -0600 From: "G. Branden Robinson" To: tuhs@tuhs.org Message-ID: <20230102192114.2uu7f4ap55e6xtby@illithid> References: <20221231035931.GG5825@mcvoy.com> <528f0c53-ccc2-88a1-5a7b-120362c648dd@mhorton.net> <20230102165120.GK25547@mcvoy.com> <20230102174304.GM25547@mcvoy.com> <59004a29-5119-9dd9-c248-518b8c4e7928@makerlisp.com> <20230102180020.p6gmiwhrnidfbfsc@illithid> <20230102181242.GO25547@mcvoy.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="rxepocddviva2y7q" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20230102181242.GO25547@mcvoy.com> Message-ID-Hash: K7EDXOWM3ZCRRJHREC5JW2NSRINTIC4F X-Message-ID-Hash: K7EDXOWM3ZCRRJHREC5JW2NSRINTIC4F X-MailFrom: g.branden.robinson@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: A few comments on porting the Bourne shell List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --rxepocddviva2y7q Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At 2023-01-02T10:12:42-0800, Larry McVoy wrote: > You are talking to a dude with 40+ years of Unix experience, I'm clocking 30 this year. A babe in the woods. > supporting commercial products most of that time. I didn't get "lucky > at Russian Roulette", I wrote scripts that were portable. I have 40 > year old scripts that _still_ work and they work on virtually every > Unix ever built. How do I know? I was a contractor for my first job, > I got plopped down in front of every random unix you could imagine and > each time I polished off the warts. Yes. That's how the chapter of the GNU Autoconf manual to which I linked got written--or so I surmise, based simply on how bizarre some of the bugs are that have to be worked around. > I spent decades supporting my own products on every flavor of Unix and > processors from Arm to System/360. Oh, and Windows XP and on and > MacOS. >=20 > My scripts worked with /bin/sh being whatever it was. >=20 > It's interesting to me that other old timers, like Clem, are saying > exactly the same thing as I am. Are we all wrong? Over on the groff list you had the opposite advice regarding Make: pick one implementation and go with it, you said, and other implementations be damned (very loosely paraphrasing).[1] I'm not saying you're wrong--I'm saying you're inconsistent. I reckon you did what you needed to do to keep the lights on and the engineers fed. That's fine, but it's also a recipe for passivity. You don't have to tell me, but count up the number of times you flexed to accommodate a buggy implementation versus telling your client that their shell was just too crap and that they needed to either install one in which you had confidence, or you'd have to decline the contract. If their users had demanded more of their commercial Unix vendors, maybe those Unices would not be regarded as dinosaurs today. I could harp further on quality of implementation issues, but I'd probably do better to take up the lotus position on the back of a motorcycle. Preferably not while the vehicle is in motion. Regards, Branden [1] https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/groff/2022-03/msg00084.html --rxepocddviva2y7q Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAABCAAdFiEEh3PWHWjjDgcrENwa0Z6cfXEmbc4FAmOzLqEACgkQ0Z6cfXEm bc6hJQ//WLEcArZFraO+o5bdur7ZgqKMQLE9RU03FUpBroE1H/fFD+IebvQTIk5D iCUe9eOiutMbDWLeL62Tx26n9XKdldPMWRYpS2EKes6k3IucdCUUMNPv0fYEG1Jy mrFUPuyj4WfeIan5PfyC08oHqmTP/BMFNFQRJp7XGa+OAG6oUy/2pEEOxpeARFEw TR7yRN36zC9/zFNL2INyUQxChUKIzz7D1oauA/QKPa+uvkdo8z6/BAFmURI8udgi BEsG+m+EdopvvSIz53QkogEl+5x8DmtlgfnpoGuPtmuuIezxaps8UeRH+oExhaIi yDi2KZSu6ZeeGpxNT5cXBTJODIeur8pH7xNrRxXLMpo4QWGRPW12xfckK4fZmXoL ZfUwFjg8dmYGIRnxx0oNRPgpxuW4lg0bnfaXxNhs0Ukls1qJCnofy4FnNfjFQgcz IRt45zUnVX0qxvA8OTveSUkJuzXu38iLHahOP7vCWcz/WoK+4AjLRL1IHYEsCXT7 xGrMt/agchS58fRLrCJ0vvsrkN8sYPNeVSXIvE4hthbv7EqZG7vvzkQDejJnfjH7 DnoGXNsr1dN/nGRjibiOwqXr6V4+e4iDepMKNw0kJPd1jy+wGTenoW4Ml6F495K8 wNwm/w133VcCOInizTI9ayFdbeTFRxPtrjpWwm8eRY9m/8wpPBM= =6FNu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --rxepocddviva2y7q--