From mboxrd@z Thu Jan  1 00:00:00 1970
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=MAILING_LIST_MULTI
	autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4
Received: (qmail 8986 invoked from network); 30 Jan 2023 15:27:42 -0000
Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146)
  by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 30 Jan 2023 15:27:42 -0000
Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1])
	by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FE5C425D6;
	Tue, 31 Jan 2023 01:27:07 +1000 (AEST)
Received: from mcvoy.com (mcvoy.com [192.169.23.250])
	by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 61EC3425D3
	for <tuhs@tuhs.org>; Tue, 31 Jan 2023 01:27:04 +1000 (AEST)
Received: by mcvoy.com (Postfix, from userid 3546)
	id 093DD35E81C; Mon, 30 Jan 2023 07:27:03 -0800 (PST)
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2023 07:27:03 -0800
From: Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com>
To: Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20230130152703.GE12306@mcvoy.com>
References: <CAC20D2MUWZjQw1O=OGgtf_g8VYoE4ZN8cPyH8FFXaToPuYuZUQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANCZdfp2SK+gHNgoybVd3asYfLkNiwt539zdNrgwPSKzK=j38Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANCZdfrnO-a7bUGRVHtGLdkGFYeaNCyTzwdR1tO+keKkmKf9cA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANCZdfqxAZRt-KUEeqqmpg4Q-D39cDQmqjQVSoQoJVYszSUa-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <emfc4c1646-a458-4e3c-9e39-ca09e9935f74@e41218a5.com>
 <CANCZdfp5PpSjbALMtC39=pZcfWxVrGpAfN8OnD7bYLt-WS3-zA@mail.gmail.com>
 <202301300750.30U7oQTh013304@freefriends.org>
 <CAKzdPgzUCv5yAyeUQAB36-ar_PEpTkgiVb1JqAmJ285kcKNh4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20230130150219.GD12306@mcvoy.com>
 <CAEoi9W4Y=hK9CmCS5jTKRn++VRQ0oCq6JVQD+LeDqfG6yse9Rg@mail.gmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
In-Reply-To: <CAEoi9W4Y=hK9CmCS5jTKRn++VRQ0oCq6JVQD+LeDqfG6yse9Rg@mail.gmail.com>
User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30)
Message-ID-Hash: 3IHHKUEITF3NVVFVLYWRC2CQ7TVNJ2VP
X-Message-ID-Hash: 3IHHKUEITF3NVVFVLYWRC2CQ7TVNJ2VP
X-MailFrom: lm@mcvoy.com
X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header
CC: tuhs@tuhs.org
X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1
Precedence: list
Subject: [TUHS] Re: FD 2
List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list <tuhs.tuhs.org>
Archived-At: <https://www.tuhs.org/mailman3/hyperkitty/list/tuhs@tuhs.org/message/3IHHKUEITF3NVVFVLYWRC2CQ7TVNJ2VP/>
List-Archive: <https://www.tuhs.org/mailman3/hyperkitty/list/tuhs@tuhs.org/>
List-Help: <mailto:tuhs-request@tuhs.org?subject=help>
List-Owner: <mailto:tuhs-owner@tuhs.org>
List-Post: <mailto:tuhs@tuhs.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:tuhs-join@tuhs.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:tuhs-leave@tuhs.org>

On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 10:16:25AM -0500, Dan Cross wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 10:02 AM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:
> > On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 07:09:55PM +1100, Rob Pike wrote:
> > > And then we have pttys, speaking of pitys.
> >
> > I'm not seeing how you do stuff like ssh into a remote system and have
> > job control, etc, work without some sort of tty.
> 
> You don't. But perhaps that model isn't super great.
> 
> There was no job control on plan9 and I can't say I ever missed it. If
> I needed another terminal, I just swept open another window. Job
> control, even remote access a la SSH (or telnet, or rlogin), are a bit
> of an historical accident. If, instead, my computing environment is
> the set of shared resources I've imported into my system, then I don't
> necessarily need something like that. The plan9 `cpu` command, for
> access to a remote CPU server, conceptually brought the CPU server to
> you, not the other way around.
> 
> It was a very different model.

$ vi foo.c
hack, hack
^Z
$ make
test test test, broken
$ fg

Yes, I could do that in 2 different terminals but that mode of working
is extremely useful, works when I don't have a windowing system, I'm
on the console.

Not having that model is a deal breaker for me, and I suspect a non
trivial number of other people.