From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 21349 invoked from network); 28 Feb 2023 08:00:23 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 28 Feb 2023 08:00:23 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E819431AC; Tue, 28 Feb 2023 18:00:18 +1000 (AEST) Received: from freefriends.org (freefriends.org [96.88.95.60]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7BC2542269 for ; Tue, 28 Feb 2023 18:00:12 +1000 (AEST) X-Envelope-From: arnold@skeeve.com Received: from freefriends.org (freefriends.org [96.88.95.60]) by freefriends.org (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id 31S7xuJi001400 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 28 Feb 2023 00:59:57 -0700 Received: (from arnold@localhost) by freefriends.org (8.14.7/8.14.7/Submit) id 31S7xt4e001399; Tue, 28 Feb 2023 00:59:55 -0700 From: arnold@skeeve.com Message-Id: <202302280759.31S7xt4e001399@freefriends.org> X-Authentication-Warning: frenzy.freefriends.org: arnold set sender to arnold@skeeve.com using -f Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2023 00:59:55 -0700 To: segaloco@protonmail.com, arnold@skeeve.com References: <58626A0B-EF9C-4920-8E20-CE0C4210BA6A@planet.nl> <202302272004.31RK4aGG001510@freefriends.org> <2f6faeb4-5e73-cf18-b0ff-edc3e1658f72@case.edu> <202302272022.31RKMG2L004091@freefriends.org> In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Heirloom mailx 12.5 7/5/10 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID-Hash: Q7WDZIQE4OKJU3CEMMUPMJQ6B2VKRI5E X-Message-ID-Hash: Q7WDZIQE4OKJU3CEMMUPMJQ6B2VKRI5E X-MailFrom: arnold@skeeve.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: tuhs@tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Generational development [was Re: Re: Early GUI on Linux] List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: As Dan said, this is nuanced. While I'm sure there's lots of mediocre programmers writing mediocre code, (a) there probably always has been [think COBOL on mainframes] and (b) it is not universal. I have generally been fortunate to find interesting and challenging work in a fairly long career; there's lots of interesting problems out there that need solving which can't be dealt with by just stringing together existing class libraries using an IDE on autopilot. You have to look for it, and then hope you're qualified enough that they'll hire you. HTH, Arnold segaloco wrote: > I see the wisdom in your last line there, I've typed and deleted a > response to this email 4 times, each one more convoluted than the last. > > The short of my stance though is, as a younger programmer (29), > I am certainly not a fan of these trends that are all too common in > my generation. That said, I've set foot in one single softare-related > class in my life (highschool Java class) and so I don't really know > what is being taught to folks going the traditional routes. All I > know from my one abortive semester of college is that I didn't see a > whole lot of reliance on individual exploration of concepts in classes, > just everyone working to a one-size-fits-all understanding of how to > be a good employee in a given subject area. Of course, this is also > influenced by my philosophy and biases and such, and only represents 4-5 > months of observation, but if my minimal experience with college is to be > believed, I have little faith that educational programs are producing > much more than meat filters between StackOverflow and editor here>. No offense to said meat filters, people gotta work, but > there is something lost when the constant march of production torpedoes > individual creativity. Then again, do big firms want sophisticated > engineers or are we too far gone into assembly line programming with no > personal connection to any of the products? I'm glad I'm as personally > involved in the stuff I work with, I could see myself slipping into the > same patterns of apathy if I was a nameless face in a sea of coders on > some project I don't even know the legal name of any given day. > > - Matt G. > > ------- Original Message ------- > On Monday, February 27th, 2023 at 12:22 PM, arnold@skeeve.com wrote: > > > > Chet Ramey chet.ramey@case.edu wrote: > > > > > On 2/27/23 3:04 PM, arnold@skeeve.com wrote: > > > > > > > IMHO the dependence upon IDEs is crippling; they cut & paste to the > > > > almost total exclusion of the keyboard, including when shell completion > > > > would be faster. > > > > > > Don't forget cargo-culting by pasting shell commands they got from the web > > > and barely understand, if at all. > > > > > > Yeah, really. > > > > I do what I can, but it's a very steep uphill battle, as most > > don't even understand that they're missing something, or that > > they could learn it if they wanted to. > > > > I think I'll stop ranting before I really get going. :-) > > > > Arnold