From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.6 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [50.116.15.146]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59AD82629C for ; Sun, 12 May 2024 22:14:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E66743665; Mon, 13 May 2024 06:13:59 +1000 (AEST) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1078D43664 for ; Mon, 13 May 2024 06:13:50 +1000 (AEST) Received: (qmail 71690 invoked from network); 12 May 2024 20:13:49 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:cleverness; s=11803664122fd.k2405; bh=2f542zBqFYwRZBCA73M8R6X5LMqjIe2PbSSeeTvcFto=; b=TcMI4tkwP3MQzNR6oMYo1C8YHdNCIDP/yc+KxHFowNPShyKuOH8KRl26ofXvTd4SkcNZtOq6H+2xFlo17BwDk5gP+qZc70XUZTX0E6cxnrDmEI7AJTZGouV8h+qEngMcB+rqN3LoS6shcNs1kNpVbnd1vnAsYgpRGypIC/d0bBkNSH8kfIZcDWIhJVLwf5OlAjJupwkPY09iMPQFXYqnSsFDoDRlq3o17T7ydgUyvcLBHjCWHrzl3Pg2KA0Ql7L0jqE/cqF6Nxjnnew8rnA9usByVxu1nvcYJbB4WNcVbrg+SbBsFsVLT3lcPbtSJxQ3qIM99Bw2QqECaxAiOQtBLg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:cleverness; s=11803664122fd.k2405; bh=2f542zBqFYwRZBCA73M8R6X5LMqjIe2PbSSeeTvcFto=; b=J1qFxhfLDxi39gbk6luh5kafsqsY7QvNaOGHr8jchGlVUWhVVV4N3ErjlHTw564qvj1awSoH/XX1kdBSbi0XZ8JuCg/w0RL+IkivxZbfs1aFAe+yIQrtI24M9n/UWt7dDtTiZek6hReNuljAYC+d6ldyptzzKw4ncrqLIy+vYpCGd/EmhRnBy9/Oh0A6a+ZDbxs+wU3MnnIaaM/ccWB33EbEbtPl0mc/2PdQwb+9UgT0gEUuhyMOLA22cSXhghD4ltkw9HoPZkcmooLMYHvWVeuldnpV1daI/NfQj082yfPgGOQKni+Zmj29/Yqv33ts/KpFtivtmrhtIhbPWV17vg== Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.3 ECDHE-RSA CHACHA20-POLY1305 AEAD) via TCP6; 12 May 2024 20:13:49 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id 0DB6A8A9D055; Sun, 12 May 2024 16:13:48 -0400 (EDT) Date: 12 May 2024 16:13:48 -0400 Message-Id: <20240512201349.0DB6A8A9D055@ary.qy> From: "John Levine" To: tuhs@tuhs.org In-Reply-To: <20240512194707.GL9216@mcvoy.com> Organization: Taughannock Networks X-Headerized: yes Cleverness: minimal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Message-ID-Hash: ADHQX56T5RMEIO2FN4DFZVCU5QZQ5DHD X-Message-ID-Hash: ADHQX56T5RMEIO2FN4DFZVCU5QZQ5DHD X-MailFrom: johnl@iecc.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: forking, Re: [COFF] Re: On Bloat and the Idea of Small Specialized Tools List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: It appears that Larry McVoy said: >Perhaps a meaningless aside, but I agree on fork(). In the last major >project I did, which was cross platform {windows,macos, all the major >Unices, Linux}, we adopted spawn() rather than fork/exec. There is no way >(that I know of) to fake fork() on Windows but it's easy to fake spawn(). The whole point of fork() is that it lets you get the effect of spawn with a lot less internal mechanism. Spawn is equivalent to: fork() ... do stuff to files and environment ... exec() By separating the fork and the exec, they didn't have to put all of the stuff in the 12 paragraphs in the spawn() man page into the the tiny PDP-11 kernel. These days now that programs include multi-megabyte shared libraries just for fun, I agree that the argument is less persuasive. On the third hard, we now understand virtual memory and paging systems a lot better so we don't need kludges like vfork(). R's, John