From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.6 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [50.116.15.146]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE03021268 for ; Mon, 17 Jun 2024 23:40:33 +0200 (CEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C680436C1; Tue, 18 Jun 2024 07:40:26 +1000 (AEST) Received: from sdaoden.eu (sdaoden.eu [217.144.132.164]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 65644436C0 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 2024 07:40:19 +1000 (AEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sdaoden.eu; s=citron; t=1718660416; x=1719327082; h=date:author:from:to:cc:subject: message-id:in-reply-to:references:mail-followup-to:openpgp:blahblahblah: author:from:subject:date:to:cc:resent-author:resent-date:resent-from: resent-sender:resent-to:resent-cc:resent-reply-to:resent-message-id: in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:content-id: content-description:message-id:mail-followup-to:openpgp:blahblahblah; bh=TtwEhzmbXFniG0+MbFcVoDVmnBU7GG9qjJ+o8tRmlcs=; b=TAIk9KfDCyWSpH40Wic/oKLMShWOiT4qGyi59gaTljvxN2HAKx6F4DzT3I21JT0xTr8/W9BP u4bPLyw/2Qw1p1i/+u9P0NWphD46b36g3XNExXPIqMqTCgi8KmJ4M9MVju4D41A2SZD0sgpUqn 64LYX5zgOqiSynJ7/GlBvfyJVc+5OZUfMuCVW41os2nXS4zI/mo6appIO9hF4ubCn4dpGGaDJx OOZwo92achwzs9mYy3igtCcSEOuyDcKyFDFDOrZ4ggOpLNNWpHGQS3fME6ncKfwIfMHxah9ypi KMBIYeqR4k7NLgNdeF3S6bSJhQHpwqwFc8dbNH8rzyyOXjNg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=ed25519-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sdaoden.eu; s=orange; t=1718660416; x=1719327082; h=date:author:from:to:cc:subject: message-id:in-reply-to:references:mail-followup-to:openpgp:blahblahblah: author:from:subject:date:to:cc:resent-author:resent-date:resent-from: resent-sender:resent-to:resent-cc:resent-reply-to:resent-message-id: in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:content-id: content-description:message-id:mail-followup-to:openpgp:blahblahblah; bh=TtwEhzmbXFniG0+MbFcVoDVmnBU7GG9qjJ+o8tRmlcs=; b=I1B72MZ+0FF2Qu8JQG2xn+KDr8Nx62wr00TZTaYJFB5RsaEAkpv5henNZt7QEhsmgZIUHF3q Hpftu9c8WFucDQ== Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2024 23:40:14 +0200 Author: Steffen Nurpmeso From: Steffen Nurpmeso To: Larry McVoy Message-ID: <20240617214014.-ipxbzuu@steffen%sdaoden.eu> In-Reply-To: <20240616234654.GB12821@mcvoy.com> References: <1841E020-8BDD-4997-A319-2FFEE75F84A5@pobox.com> <802b871c-2c5e-514c-f8d5-f3eef71d76d4@makerlisp.com> <20240616234654.GB12821@mcvoy.com> Mail-Followup-To: Larry McVoy , Luther Johnson , tuhs@tuhs.org User-Agent: s-nail v14.9.24-621-g0d1e55f367 OpenPGP: id=EE19E1C1F2F7054F8D3954D8308964B51883A0DD; url=https://ftp.sdaoden.eu/steffen.asc; preference=signencrypt BlahBlahBlah: Any stupid boy can crush a beetle. But all the professors in the world can make no bugs. Message-ID-Hash: 3WSMI4DQLTQGNE6QC3IJYDFZHO5Y6KBN X-Message-ID-Hash: 3WSMI4DQLTQGNE6QC3IJYDFZHO5Y6KBN X-MailFrom: steffen@sdaoden.eu X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: Luther Johnson , tuhs@tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Version 256 of systemd boasts '42% less Unix philosophy' The Register List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Larry McVoy wrote in <20240616234654.GB12821@mcvoy.com>: |On Sun, Jun 16, 2024 at 04:34:34PM -0700, Luther Johnson wrote: |> I think there's a parallel from the Unix/Linux systems that we think of ... |> For example: CMake vs. just learning how to write makefiles properly. |> You fiddle with CMake and you never really know why it does what it |> does, especially from one version to the next, "but you don't have to |> write makefiles". | |I could not agree more with this post, all of it, but especially the |Cmake stuff. Writing Makefiles isn't that hard, if you are a programmer |and can't do that, how good of a programmer are you? And is it really |easier to learn shiny-new-make-replacement-du-jour every year? It must be said that "thrillingly fast" is a key item all those (maybe ninja cmake ant) throw in. And that it takes quite a bit of (non-portability and) thought to empower "normal" makefiles to achieve full parallelism etc. I think you watch the FreeBSD hacker community, and there is "war" around the "meta-mode" (against cmake) to avoid recompilations etc. Multiple people are working on BSD make and the BSD makefile system. (In fact on NetBSD the last years even saw a tremendous run on overhauling BSD make, which then only got imported to FreeBSD.) The files are very dense after decades of engineering, and due to "clean namespace" paradigm there are long variable names that sometimes fill half of an eighty column screen alone; for (stupid first-see-and-take) things like INSTALL_DDIR= ${_INSTALL_DDIR:S://:/:g:C:/$::} you need a clear head. This is not self-descriptive. (Not to talk about the fact that lines (may) become expanded by the shell after they have become expanded by make, ie, all the quoting, and the delayed or immediate macro expansion mechanism(s).) Original make did not have conditionals, or file inclusions, or dedicated control of parallelism (on file, on target level) via .NOTPARALLEL: and .WAIT:, so things like tangerine: config .WAIT build .WAIT test .WAIT install are not portable. (In fact portability and parallelism is not possible unless you use a recursive approach, with all the pitfalls that then brings.) And then all the bugs everywhere, with quoting pitfalls, and this applies to helper tools like awk too (ie xpg4/bin/awk even documents "Notice that backslash escapes are interpreted twice"). I also remember (from the time i still gave money to journalists) terms like "the usual triad" for "./configure && make && make install" with that implied "grazy times, but that is how you do it" undertone maybe even. Now i see for example "cmake -D VAR1 .. && cmake --build build && cmake --install build" which is possibly easier to grasp when compiling a C compiler that is 1.2 GiB when installed. --End of <20240616234654.GB12821@mcvoy.com> --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt)