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From: "G. Branden Robinson" <g.branden.robinson@gmail.com>
To: TUHS <tuhs@tuhs.org>
Subject: [TUHS] Re: Anyone ever heard of teaching a case study of Initial Unix?
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2024 18:50:27 -0500	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <20240703235027.kkg27bhvniifijsb@illithid> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAOkr1zXSefHKOqTCaGE7Zb_T09HD-s2pM9QfTW8PuMkLGioDGg@mail.gmail.com>

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Getting in before the COFF boom lowers...  :-O

At 2024-07-03T17:29:26-0600, Marc Rochkind wrote:
> > The programmers considered as "fungible workforce" by mainstream
> > software engineering and project management theories are *paid* to
> > to their programming job, and they mostly have to carry that job
> > over working on prescribed objectives and timelines which have been
> > decided by somebody else, managers who know nothing at all about
> > software development. Personal interest in the project, passion,
> > motivation, curiosity, creative power, sense of beauty, the joy of
> > belonging to a community of likeminded people, are never part of the
> > equation, at any point.
>
> What a cynical take on software development!

There's some truth to it.  But I'd agree that it is not the whole story.

> The logical error is to assume that if something is sometimes true
> (e.g., "managers who know nothing at all about software development")
> then it is always true.

Yes, and this fallacy is a popular one among almost any sample of humans
one takes.

> My experience over many decades is quite different. Most often,
> managers know software quite well. Where they fail is in their very
> poor understanding of how to manage people.

This aligns closely with my experience.  Often the worst managers I've
had were those who had the best programming "chops".

> The bias that operates in software development, and perhaps all
> organizations, is that when there is a disagreement between management
> and non-management (e.g., programmers), the non-managers usually
> assume that they are always right and the managers are wrong.

An obvious solution to this sort of problem, long held to be inherently
horrific, is to cultivate a more mature perspective on management, and
skill at performing it, by having workers manage themselves.  One often
finds this insight at or near the heart of "revolutionary" approaches to
software development like Agile or Lean, sometimes under many layers of
obfuscation to avoid alarming MBAs and others whose career plans from
adolescence involved going directly into professional management from
university.

That solution is, of course, worker self-management.

> I have never met a programmer or group of programmers who were always
> right. Most often, they are ignorant of financing, regulatory
> constraints, product schedules, commitments, staffing issues, and
> everything else that isn't coding.  (There are exceptions, but they
> are uncommon.)

Indeed.  One way to overcome this ignorance and produce more exceptions
is to educate one's staff in these very phenomena.  I won't digress on
why this doesn't often happen in practice.  It doesn't take much
imagination, or professional experience, to reason it out.

> Management, by definition, is the art and science of using resources
> to reach an objective.

Stated this broadly, programmers solve management problems all the time.
Mightn't their skills "port"?

> Programmers generally are concerned only with themselves as a
> resource and with their own personal programming objective.

If I s/Programmers/People/;s/progamming//, then I find this statement
no less true.  Cooperators and defectors appear in every aspect of life.

> It is unusual to find a programmer who understands management.

As noted, a solution exists.  But it is an unpalatable one to those
touted, by themselves or others, as "thought leaders".

Regards,
Branden

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  reply	other threads:[~2024-07-03 23:50 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 84+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2024-07-03  4:51 [TUHS] " sjenkin
2024-07-03  5:02 ` [TUHS] " Al Kossow
2024-07-03  6:46   ` arnold
2024-07-03 14:04   ` Clem Cole
2024-07-03 15:22     ` Theodore Ts'o
2024-07-03 15:36       ` Larry McVoy
2024-07-03 14:59   ` Marc Rochkind
2024-07-03 23:35     ` G. Branden Robinson
2024-07-04 13:00       ` Marc Donner
2024-07-03  9:04 ` A. P. Garcia
2024-07-03 15:17 ` Vincenzo Nicosia
2024-07-03 15:35   ` Marc Donner
2024-07-03 17:39     ` Jon Forrest
2024-07-03 17:49       ` segaloco via TUHS
2024-07-03 18:16         ` Erik E. Fair
2024-07-03 19:58         ` Rich Salz
2024-07-03 23:15     ` Dave Horsfall
2024-07-03 23:23       ` Marc Donner
2024-07-03 23:26       ` Rik Farrow
2024-07-04 23:26         ` Dave Horsfall
2024-07-03 15:37   ` Al Kossow
2024-07-03 16:01     ` Al Kossow
2024-07-03 16:05       ` Warner Losh
2024-07-03 23:29   ` Marc Rochkind
2024-07-03 23:50     ` G. Branden Robinson [this message]
2024-07-04  8:23     ` Vincenzo Nicosia
2024-07-04 20:34       ` Nevin Liber
2024-07-04 20:44         ` segaloco via TUHS
2024-07-04 21:41           ` sjenkin
     [not found]             ` <7AC009E5-C985-44AD-A55E-E0BFC05CDD31@serissa.com>
2024-07-05  9:41               ` Steve Jenkin
2024-07-05  9:47               ` Steve Jenkin
2024-07-05  0:03         ` Stuff Received
2024-07-05  0:12           ` Larry McVoy
2024-07-05  2:24             ` Adam Thornton
2024-07-05  2:42               ` Bakul Shah via TUHS
2024-07-05  7:13                 ` arnold
2024-07-05  7:42                   ` Bakul Shah via TUHS
2024-07-05  8:20                     ` arnold
2024-07-05  8:52                       ` G. Branden Robinson
2024-07-05  7:36               ` Dave Horsfall
2024-07-05 10:18                 ` Peter Yardley
2024-07-05 21:38                   ` [TUHS] Re: mental architecture models, " John Levine
2024-07-05 21:49                     ` Larry McVoy
2024-07-05 22:08                       ` Charles H Sauer (he/him)
2024-07-05 22:24                         ` Larry McVoy
2024-07-05 23:17                       ` John Levine
2024-07-06 12:52                         ` sjenkin
2024-07-06 14:02                           ` John R Levine
2024-07-06 15:58                           ` Clem Cole
2024-07-06 20:56                             ` John R Levine
2024-07-06 21:32                               ` Charles H Sauer (he/him)
2024-07-06 23:46                                 ` Peter Yardley
2024-07-07 17:43                                   ` James Frew
2024-07-07  1:39                                 ` John Levine
2024-07-07  3:26                                   ` [TUHS] Re: PL.8 [was " Charles H Sauer (he/him)
2024-07-07  5:33                         ` [TUHS] " arnold
2024-07-05 22:10                     ` Dan Cross
2024-07-07 22:00                   ` [TUHS] " Dave Horsfall
2024-07-07 23:28                     ` Brad Spencer
2024-07-08  6:17                       ` Dave Horsfall
2024-07-08  6:27                       ` Lars Brinkhoff
2024-07-08  6:51                         ` Dave Horsfall
2024-07-08  9:36                           ` David Arnold
2024-07-08  6:59                       ` arnold
2024-07-08 13:22                         ` Larry McVoy
2024-07-08 15:37                           ` Al Kossow
2024-07-08 17:22                             ` Tom Lyon
2024-07-08 17:04                           ` Clem Cole
2024-07-08 15:28                         ` Brad Spencer
2024-07-08 15:33                           ` Al Kossow
2024-07-08  0:21                     ` John Levine
2024-07-08  0:35                       ` Dave Horsfall
2024-07-08 12:29                     ` Peter Yardley
2024-07-05 16:40                 ` Jon Steinhart
2024-07-06 13:20                   ` Dave Horsfall
2024-07-05  0:08       ` Marc Rochkind
2024-07-04  1:53 ` John Levine
2024-07-04  2:59   ` segaloco via TUHS
2024-07-04  6:53     ` Rob Pike
2024-07-04 15:07       ` Larry McVoy
2024-07-03 14:46 [TUHS] " Norman Wilson
2024-07-03 15:45 ` [TUHS] " Clem Cole
2024-07-03 15:52   ` Clem Cole
2024-07-03 16:12   ` Chet Ramey via TUHS
2024-07-05 13:20 Douglas McIlroy

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