From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [50.116.15.146]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1F9023A73 for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2024 22:56:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B74542198; Thu, 8 Aug 2024 06:56:29 +1000 (AEST) Received: from sdaoden.eu (sdaoden.eu [217.144.132.164]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 885C6410DC for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2024 06:56:17 +1000 (AEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sdaoden.eu; s=citron; t=1723064175; x=1723730841; h=date:author:from:to:cc:subject: message-id:in-reply-to:references:mail-followup-to:openpgp:blahblahblah: mime-version:content-type:author:from:subject:date:to:cc:resent-author: resent-date:resent-from:resent-sender:resent-to:resent-cc:resent-reply-to: resent-message-id:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:content-id: content-description:message-id:mail-followup-to:openpgp:blahblahblah; bh=p98diHSciEvm2Z3ljkbNXU2UGzwOr2zjGEQdNjXi0Sk=; b=Z86qREaQtTkctz2CR8DjMKnLcNjgosqu3Xr7U+3+tO/FAMdz5pszo4XpapASvI3ETb1Rkav0 NYRoNxcNInbkLI84E1b5Ig+bJg1cesqxxrFQvVGGdvJvRk0/9tFmm4Q192roRVPx24aN7rKNtE gGQn7nVE61+98vFqqa/pFqKJz8483IJlnjpXp4HmDYjxZFKJ3jt+b702ssswceSAmCVUQYg54y 8yvLbVxwtPs9bu5BKOEKK+EZOxntNTnzCvOmOCx6g6q68P6ZGOkutCmF00JmaiFROcoRZ8HqQY +wa1f6Z037Sl6oGxmojSTGPQpQZ2/C7DOcKsB+gXNorEhl8w== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=ed25519-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sdaoden.eu; s=orange; t=1723064175; x=1723730841; h=date:author:from:to:cc:subject: message-id:in-reply-to:references:mail-followup-to:openpgp:blahblahblah: mime-version:content-type:author:from:subject:date:to:cc:resent-author: resent-date:resent-from:resent-sender:resent-to:resent-cc:resent-reply-to: resent-message-id:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:content-id: content-description:message-id:mail-followup-to:openpgp:blahblahblah; bh=p98diHSciEvm2Z3ljkbNXU2UGzwOr2zjGEQdNjXi0Sk=; b=ltTx3c6ojNezdR1bsBixfEca11J8PUHcTwg1PAISEnxBhPRmJJQHLrEMZGgO4ZUyeqXQrsAg czu0vU0M33R+Dg== Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2024 22:56:14 +0200 Author: Steffen Nurpmeso From: Steffen Nurpmeso To: "Theodore Ts'o" Message-ID: <20240807205614.Kj1pd4YI@steffen%sdaoden.eu> In-Reply-To: <20240807040644.GA4511@mit.edu> References: <202408060639.4766dk6x480855@freefriends.org> <20240807040644.GA4511@mit.edu> Mail-Followup-To: "Theodore Ts'o" , Rik Farrow , Peter Weinberger =?utf-8?Q?(=E6=B8=A9=E5=8D=9A=E6=A0=BC)?= , tuhs@tuhs.org, segaloco@protonmail.com User-Agent: s-nail v14.9.24-621-g0d1e55f367 OpenPGP: id=EE19E1C1F2F7054F8D3954D8308964B51883A0DD; url=https://ftp.sdaoden.eu/steffen.asc; preference=signencrypt BlahBlahBlah: Any stupid boy can crush a beetle. But all the professors in the world can make no bugs. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID-Hash: HXKJJI6FKEGLJXO75CKHE5HZJ5D47GDQ X-Message-ID-Hash: HXKJJI6FKEGLJXO75CKHE5HZJ5D47GDQ X-MailFrom: steffen@sdaoden.eu X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: Rik Farrow , "Peter Weinberger =?utf-8?Q? ?= (=E6=B8=A9=E5=8D=9A=E6=A0=BC)" , tuhs@tuhs.org, segaloco@protonmail.com X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Other POSIX Candidates? List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Theodore Ts'o wrote in <20240807040644.GA4511@mit.edu>: |On Tue, Aug 06, 2024 at 10:31:42AM -0700, Rik Farrow wrote: |> I recall something different than what others had suggested. When the US |> government issued requests for proposals, they weren't permitted \ |> to specify |> products by name. In particular, if you wanted something that wasn't |> Microsoft, you couldn't actually specify that it be Unix. | |That might have been *a* consideration, and that might have been a |reason to take a pre-existing standard work and turn it into something |official such as IEEE. | |There was a similar dynamic at work with the Linux Standard Base, |which was originally an effort (which I was involved in), to create a |ABI standard for Linux. The hope at the time was that this might make |it easier for application vendors to make comercial software available |that would work across multiple Linux distributions --- and in |particular SuSE and Red Hat. | |This work went on for awhile, and we had developed an ABI standard |that worked aross multiple architectures, including (but not limited |to) x86/64, PowerPC, and S/390. At one point, in order to sell into |certain government market (both the US and some European countries), |there was a desire by certain major companies that we take the LSB to |some Official Standards Body (the Free Standards Group, and which |merged with OSDL to form the Linux Foundation wasn't good enough for |government bureaucrats). So I was involved with various corporate |strategists about which standards body would be easy enough to |control; we considered IEEE, ECMA, and ISO. Ultimately the choice was |ISO, and various big companies (including IBM and HP) sent their |employees to various national standards bodies, and I got bunch of |international trips to Europe and Asia, and after a year or two, the |Linux Standard Base became ISO/IEC 23360. | |Of course, keeping an ISO standard up to date took a huge amount of |effort and money, and over time, the requirement from government |buyers that an OS came with an Internaional Standard went away --- and |then my employer at the time, as well as the other major Linux |companies, abandoned the effort completely. | |So while it may have been the case that at one point the US Government |may have had a requirement, and the US Government may have looked down |on plebian standards bodies like Uniforum and the Free Standards Body, |and this might have inspired the $$$$ and effort to get an officially |blessed International Standard, this was very likely *not* the reason |why the stndard was written in the first place. | | - Ted | |P.S. For those of you who heard the controversy of how Microsoft |manipulated the ISO process by stacking the deck with the employees at |multiple countries' national bodies to influence the Office Open XML |File Format (ISO/IEC 29500, previously known as ECMA-376), I can say |quite authoratively that IBM and HP, as multinational, were not above |doing something very similar with ISO/IEC 23360. The only difference |was that it wasn't quite a high stakes, and it didn't result in |appeals up to ISO/IEC JTC like what happened with ISO/IEC 29500. | |But as a result, I'm quite cynical about standards bodies which do |voting by countries' national standards bodies, since I've seen how |easy it is for multinationals to put fairly major thumbs on the scales |to get a desired business outcome... --End of <20240807040644.GA4511@mit.edu> Btw how ridiculous is the view onto those Chinese Linux Distributions which put effort in making Linux POSIX compatible, and even pay money for making that official? I personally was *tremendously*, well, pissed, once one of those distributions was (just recently, ie, years later) not allowed to join the encrypted part of oss-security. Too much politics in a non-free world. --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt) | | Only during dog days: | On the 81st anniversary of the Goebbel's Sportpalast speech | von der Leyen gave an overlong hypocritical inauguration one. | The brew's essence of our civilizing advancement seems o be: | Total war - shortest war -> Permanent war - everlasting war