[TUHS] Re: HP-UX

[TUHS] Re: HP-UX

[Noel Chiappa]

    > From: Kevin Bowling

    > I wonder if we should collect resources like this on a wiki page or
    > something?

My habit on the CHWiki is to have the articles on subjects where there is a
lot of documentation online is to have the articles mostly be 'executive
summeries', and corral the links to the stuff online to a section at the end,
so that people who want to see the gory details can look at the original
documentation. See, for example:

  https://gunkies.org/wiki/AN/FSQ-7

That works well, even for material that later goes 404, because with the URL,
one can generally find it later in the Internet Archive (things like Google
won't find things that are only there).

Don't ask me to add them, though; I still haven't found time to add the links
to the BSD/OS stuff you found!

	Noel

[TUHS] Re: HP-UX

[Alexander Schreiber]

On Sat, Sep 07, 2024 at 07:07:49PM -0500, G. Branden Robinson wrote:
> At 2024-09-07T22:30:24+0200, Alexander Schreiber wrote:
> > And from reading between the lines, there seemed to be no love lost
> > between the two sides at HP at the time ("old HP" and "Compaq
> > acquisition").
> 
> Yeah, but Carly Fiorina was _impactful_, man, and that's the most
> important thing you can be in this business.  When it's a bad idea and
> you do it anyway and tons of people complain, that just means you're
> capable of making the Hard Choices(tm).

Hard Choices (TM), impactful ... whatever, if in the end ones decisions
as CEO aren't profitable for the company, what is one even paid the
big bucks for? Any fool can run a company into the ground.

I was herding HP-UX when Carly Fiorina was evicted from HP and we
had the HP consultants (and our friendly HP field tech) on site at
that time. They told us that the folks back in the HP offices were
apparently literally dancing on the tables and singing "The witch
is dead, the witch is dead!".

Kind regards,
           Alex.
-- 
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
 looks like work."                                      -- Thomas A. Edison

[TUHS] Re: HP-UX

[Chet Ramey via TUHS]

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On 9/7/24 8:07 PM, G. Branden Robinson wrote:

> Yeah, but Carly Fiorina was _impactful_, man, 

Aye, Carly.

-- 
``The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.'' - Chaucer
		 ``Ars longa, vita brevis'' - Hippocrates
Chet Ramey, UTech, CWRU    chet@case.edu    http://tiswww.cwru.edu/~chet/

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[TUHS] Re: HP-UX

[G. Branden Robinson]

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At 2024-09-07T22:30:24+0200, Alexander Schreiber wrote:
> And from reading between the lines, there seemed to be no love lost
> between the two sides at HP at the time ("old HP" and "Compaq
> acquisition").

Yeah, but Carly Fiorina was _impactful_, man, and that's the most
important thing you can be in this business.  When it's a bad idea and
you do it anyway and tons of people complain, that just means you're
capable of making the Hard Choices(tm).

Upon such things are multiple presidential campaigns launched.

https://fortune.com/article/why-carlys-big-bet-is-failing-fortune-classics-2005/

Regards,
Branden

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[TUHS] Re: HP-UX

[Alexander Schreiber]

On Tue, Sep 03, 2024 at 09:06:49AM +1000, Peter Yardley wrote:
> Hockey Pucks
> Aches and Pains
> Slowaris

aka Slowlartus (and before that, ScumOS) in certain circles. 

Having had to deal with commercial Unices _really_ opened my eyes to
what a _blessing_ Open Source Unix (Linux and the BSDs) are.

Kind regards,
           Alex.
-- 
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
 looks like work."                                      -- Thomas A. Edison

[TUHS] Re: HP-UX

[Alexander Schreiber]

On Mon, Sep 02, 2024 at 01:17:16PM -0400, Alan D. Salewski wrote:
> 
> FWIW, HP's HP-UX tech support at that time was really top-notch, in
> sharp contrast to most other tech support with whom I've dealt,
> before and since.

"Was" being the operative term here. By the time I wrestled HP-UX for
a living (early 2000s), it was ... not so great. We ran the MCOE (Mission
Critical Operating Environment) package with MC/ServiceGuard clustering
for HA services and paid for the support contract to go with it. Ran
into an issue were something we were trying to do just didn't work and
the kernel told us to take a hike (LVM fun). Fine, time to use that
expensive contract. We had a few rounds of back-and-forth with HP support,
even got IIRC two new versions of the LVM binaries, no dice. After some
time (IIRC at least 4 weeks) they must have found someone who remembered
where the kernel sources were stashed _and_ could read them. We finally
got an answer that TLDRed down to: "What you are trying to do cannot work
because you run into hard coded design limits of the kernel", ok, fair
enough - but why did that have to take so long?

The hardware support (we ran both PA-RISC and Itanium from HP) was an
interesting mixed bag at the time. Our normal hardware support guy was
"old HP" and _really_ good, friendly chap, very competent. So were the
consultants we hired for MC/SG training. Then we got a tech for the tape
library who as originally Compaq and that was just ... bad[0], to the point
where the aforementioned consultants were visibly embarassed and took
over[2].

And from reading between the lines, there seemed to be no love lost
between the two sides at HP at the time ("old HP" and "Compaq acquisition").

Kind regards,
           Alex.
[0] Showing up to a (known to the company that sent you) pure HP-UX
    environment and demanding that the LTO library be wired to a
    Windows server[1] instead because you need to do a firmware update
    gets you results that start at loud laughter and move on to
    unprintable language.
[1] Aside from us going "WTF?!", that wouldn't have worked anyway since
    the Windows servers the other departments had didn't have Fibre Channel
    interfaces ...
[2] turns out, one could do the firmware updates from HP-UX if one knew
    their stuff
-- 
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
 looks like work."                                      -- Thomas A. Edison

[TUHS] Re: HP-UX

[Alexander Schreiber]

On Mon, Sep 02, 2024 at 10:58:15AM -0400, Stuff Received wrote:
> On 2024-08-31 15:30, Larry McVoy wrote (in part):
> > Not so much on hockey pucks.
> 
> New term to me -- I had always heard it called "H-Pox".

Standard pronounciation I heard was "HP-SUX". And I was HP-UX
sysadmin for a living for a while .. 

Kind regards,
           Alex.
-- 
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
 looks like work."                                      -- Thomas A. Edison

[TUHS] Re: HP-UX

[Kevin Bowling]

On Sat, Aug 31, 2024 at 1:20 PM Kevin Bowling <kevin.bowling@kev009.com> wrote:
>
> On Sat, Aug 31, 2024 at 12:30 PM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:
> >
> > On Sat, Aug 31, 2024 at 11:49:24AM -0700, Kevin Bowling wrote:
> > > Larry, I'll bite.  Tell us about HP-UX :)
> >
> > They didn't understand mmap() semantics at all.  The page cache and the
> > buffer cache both existed, there were races on the coherency and they
> > didn't share data.  So the whole point of mmap(), a window into the
> > cache, didn't work.  If you looked at a file read only with mmap()
> > and read(), you used 2x the memory you should have because there
> > were two non-shared caches.
>
> From what I can tell from the documents I linked, and some other
> references, they never ended up doing a UBC.

Coincidentally I just came across a worthwile paper on UBC that
concurs https://www.usenix.org/legacy/publications/library/proceedings/usenix2000/freenix/full_papers/silvers/silvers_html/index.html

Reading between the lines a little bit with the benefit of modern
search capabilities, I can piece together a story in that they ignored
it and then there was a strategic FS shift.  In HP-UX 10.x, they
introduce "JFS" (unfortunate name since IBM used it with AIX 3.2 in
1990) which is more accurately a licensed VxFS a.k.a Veritas File
System on top of VxVM.  VxFS is interesting in its heyday because it
had many contemporary features like journaling, extents, resizing,
expansion, online defrag, and advanced readahead algorithms and is
supposedly reliable and scalable.  It was also empirically very
portable, but I might glean that it was not so delicately ported to
each OS and I see direct evidence it has its own variant of buffer
cache.. which mirrors the ZFS saga.  So, after they made that design
decision, it became even more futile and unattainable.

It would be interesting to know if Veritas did a better job with
Solaris, AIX, UnixWare or Windows NT.. a somewhat difficult question
to answer given the sands of time but I will keep an eye on it during
future experiments.

> > And it was just clunky, I came from SunOS, the bar was pretty high.
> > Define clunky, you ask?  Making stuff work on HP-UX was way harder
> > than SunOS.  Most open source things, you could just type "make"
> > and it worked.  Not so much on hockey pucks.
> >
> > --lm
> >
> >

[TUHS] Re: HP-UX

[Åke Nordin]

On 2024-09-03 01:06, Peter Yardley wrote:

> Hockey Pucks
> Aches and Pains

I have absolutely no idea if anyone used "Hubris-Pachyderm" IRL,
but J.D. Frazer (AKA "Illiad") used the slightly derogatory name
in his webcomic, User Friendly. First use seems to have been
Tuesday 2000-09-26:

https://web.archive.org/web/20020713075556/http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20000926&mode=classic

-- 
Åke Nordin <ake.nordin@netia.se>, resident Net/Lunix/telecom geek.
Netia Data AB, Stockholm SWEDEN *46#7O466OI99#

[TUHS] Re: HP-UX

[Peter Yardley]

This is a joke I remember about the HP way …

https://www.cs.earlham.edu/~skylar/humor/Unix/hp.lunch.htm

> On 3 Sep 2024, at 3:44 AM, Jon Steinhart <jon@fourwinds.com> wrote:
> 
> Alan D. Salewski writes:
>> On 2024-09-02 11:02:04, Brad Spencer <brad@anduin.eldar.org> spake thus:
>>> Stuff Received <stuff@riddermarkfarm.ca> writes:
>>> 
>>>> On 2024-08-31 15:30, Larry McVoy wrote (in part):
>>>>> Not so much on hockey pucks.
>>>> 
>>>> New term to me -- I had always heard it called "H-Pox".
>>>> 
>>>> S.
>>> 
>>> Heavily Patched was what we called it at Lucent in the group I was in.
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Brad Spencer
>> 
>> "Hourly Patches" is one of the names I heard in the small HP-UX shop
> 
> My view of HP radically changed in the late 1980s as the result of
> bidding on a contract.  I got a call from the marketing person with
> whom I was working who was laughing so hysterically that it took a
> while to get the story.
> 
> It all comes down to the "HP Way".
> 
> She went in to pitch our proposal to a room full of guys.  A some
> point one of them started pounding his fist on the table saying
> "No no no no no.  You just don't grasp the HP-ness of it."  It was
> a testament to her skill that she managed to keep a straight face.
> 
> That's what it's been to me ever since.  The HP-ness.
> 
> Jon

.1.3.6.1.4.1.8852.4.2
Peter Yardley
peter.martin.yardley@gmail.com

[TUHS] Re: HP-UX

[Larry McVoy]

On Tue, Sep 03, 2024 at 09:06:49AM +1000, Peter Yardley wrote:
> Hockey Pucks
> Aches and Pains
> Slowaris

That last one hurts, I spent so much time making SunOS fast only to have
it all thrown away.  Sigh.
-- 
---
Larry McVoy           Retired to fishing          http://www.mcvoy.com/lm/boat

[TUHS] Re: HP-UX

[Peter Yardley]

Hockey Pucks
Aches and Pains
Slowaris

> On 3 Sep 2024, at 12:58 AM, Stuff Received <stuff@riddermarkfarm.ca> wrote:
> 
> On 2024-08-31 15:30, Larry McVoy wrote (in part):
>> Not so much on hockey pucks.
> 
> New term to me -- I had always heard it called "H-Pox".
> 
> S.
> 

.1.3.6.1.4.1.8852.4.2
Peter Yardley
peter.martin.yardley@gmail.com

[TUHS] Re: HP-UX

[Dave Horsfall]

On Mon, 2 Sep 2024, Stuff Received wrote:

> > Not so much on hockey pucks.
> 
> New term to me -- I had always heard it called "H-Pox".

Be glad that they didn't call themselves Packard-Hewlett...

-- Dave

[TUHS] Re: HP-UX

[Jon Steinhart]

Alan D. Salewski writes:
> On 2024-09-02 11:02:04, Brad Spencer <brad@anduin.eldar.org> spake thus:
> >Stuff Received <stuff@riddermarkfarm.ca> writes:
> >
> >> On 2024-08-31 15:30, Larry McVoy wrote (in part):
> >>> Not so much on hockey pucks.
> >>
> >> New term to me -- I had always heard it called "H-Pox".
> >>
> >> S.
> >
> >Heavily Patched was what we called it at Lucent in the group I was in.
> >
> >-- 
> >Brad Spencer
>
> "Hourly Patches" is one of the names I heard in the small HP-UX shop

My view of HP radically changed in the late 1980s as the result of
bidding on a contract.  I got a call from the marketing person with
whom I was working who was laughing so hysterically that it took a
while to get the story.

It all comes down to the "HP Way".

She went in to pitch our proposal to a room full of guys.  A some
point one of them started pounding his fist on the table saying
"No no no no no.  You just don't grasp the HP-ness of it."  It was
a testament to her skill that she managed to keep a straight face.

That's what it's been to me ever since.  The HP-ness.

Jon

[TUHS] Re: HP-UX

[Alan D. Salewski]

On 2024-09-02 11:02:04, Brad Spencer <brad@anduin.eldar.org> spake thus:
>Stuff Received <stuff@riddermarkfarm.ca> writes:
>
>> On 2024-08-31 15:30, Larry McVoy wrote (in part):
>>> Not so much on hockey pucks.
>>
>> New term to me -- I had always heard it called "H-Pox".
>>
>> S.
>
>Heavily Patched was what we called it at Lucent in the group I was in.
>
>-- 
>Brad Spencer

"Hourly Patches" is one of the names I heard in the small HP-UX shop
in which I worked in the late 1990's. The system updates would
arrive on physical CD-ROM media fairly frequently (or so it seemed
at the time), and those would pile up until somebody applied them.

FWIW, HP's HP-UX tech support at that time was really top-notch, in
sharp contrast to most other tech support with whom I've dealt,
before and since.

-- 
a l a n   d.   s a l e w s k i
ads@salewski.email
salewski@att.net
https://github.com/salewski

[TUHS] Re: HP-UX

[Ron Natalie]

I worked with HP for years on joint development.   Never heard it called 
anything other than H-Pucks.
That was in contrast to HP’s other operating system, Mighty Poor Excuse.

[TUHS] Re: HP-UX

[Brad Spencer]

Stuff Received <stuff@riddermarkfarm.ca> writes:

> On 2024-08-31 15:30, Larry McVoy wrote (in part):
>> Not so much on hockey pucks.
>
> New term to me -- I had always heard it called "H-Pox".
>
> S.



Heavily Patched was what we called it at Lucent in the group I was in.



-- 
Brad Spencer

[TUHS] Re: HP-UX

[Stuff Received]

On 2024-08-31 15:30, Larry McVoy wrote (in part):
> Not so much on hockey pucks.

New term to me -- I had always heard it called "H-Pox".

S.

[TUHS] Re: HP-UX

[Kevin Bowling]

On Sat, Aug 31, 2024 at 12:30 PM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:
>
> On Sat, Aug 31, 2024 at 11:49:24AM -0700, Kevin Bowling wrote:
> > Larry, I'll bite.  Tell us about HP-UX :)
>
> They didn't understand mmap() semantics at all.  The page cache and the
> buffer cache both existed, there were races on the coherency and they
> didn't share data.  So the whole point of mmap(), a window into the
> cache, didn't work.  If you looked at a file read only with mmap()
> and read(), you used 2x the memory you should have because there
> were two non-shared caches.

From what I can tell from the documents I linked, and some other
references, they never ended up doing a UBC.

> And it was just clunky, I came from SunOS, the bar was pretty high.
> Define clunky, you ask?  Making stuff work on HP-UX was way harder
> than SunOS.  Most open source things, you could just type "make"
> and it worked.  Not so much on hockey pucks.
>
> --lm
>
>

[TUHS] Re: HP-UX

[Larry McVoy]

On Sat, Aug 31, 2024 at 11:49:24AM -0700, Kevin Bowling wrote:
> Larry, I'll bite.  Tell us about HP-UX :)

They didn't understand mmap() semantics at all.  The page cache and the
buffer cache both existed, there were races on the coherency and they
didn't share data.  So the whole point of mmap(), a window into the
cache, didn't work.  If you looked at a file read only with mmap()
and read(), you used 2x the memory you should have because there
were two non-shared caches.

And it was just clunky, I came from SunOS, the bar was pretty high.
Define clunky, you ask?  Making stuff work on HP-UX was way harder
than SunOS.  Most open source things, you could just type "make"
and it worked.  Not so much on hockey pucks.

--lm