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[74.105.35.32]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p82sm1967132qke.121.2021.07.02.15.28.09 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 02 Jul 2021 15:28:09 -0700 (PDT) To: "Nelson H. F. Beebe" , The Unix Heritage Society mailing list References: From: Chet Ramey Organization: ITS, Case Western Reserve University Message-ID: <231143c0-3168-ee1c-37e2-5c93238432d2@case.edu> Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2021 18:27:45 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.11.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mirapoint-IP-Reputation: reputation=Good-1, source=Queried, refid=tid=0001.0A742F90.60DF86EC.0003, actions=tag X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A742F1F.60DF92FB.0005, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=74.105.35.32, so=2016-11-06 16:00:04, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 3daef49ae851c7b94376ae8b07baa581 X-Mirapoint-IP-Reputation: reputation=good-1, source=Fixed, refid=n/a, actions=tag X-Junkmail-Status: score=7/80, host=mpv2-2015.case.edu X-Junkmail-PrAS-Raw: score=7/80, refid=2.7.2:2021.7.2.220016:17:7.944, ip=, rules=__YOUTUBE_RCVD, DKIM_SIGNATURE, __X_GOOGLE_DKIM_SIGNATURE, __X_GM_MESSAGE_STATE, __X_GOOGLE_SMTP_SOURCE, __HAS_REPLYTO, __HAS_CC_HDR, __SUBJ_REPLY, __BOUNCE_CHALLENGE_SUBJ, __BOUNCE_NDR_SUBJ_EXEMPT, __SUBJ_ALPHA_END, __TO_MALFORMED_2, __MULTIPLE_RCPTS_TO_X2, __TO_NAME, __TO_NAME_DIFF_FROM_ACC, __HAS_REFERENCES, __REFERENCES, __HAS_FROM, FROM_EDU_TLD, __HAS_MSGID, __SANE_MSGID, DATE_TZ_NA, __USER_AGENT, __MOZILLA_USER_AGENT, __MIME_VERSION, __IN_REP_TO, __CT, __CT_TEXT_PLAIN, __CTE, __REPLYTO_SAMEAS_FROM_ADDY, __REPLYTO_SAMEAS_FROM_ACC, __FROM_DOMAIN_IN_ANY_CC1, __FROM_DOMAIN_IN_ANY_CC2, __RCPT_DOMAIN_NOT_TO, __REPLYTO_SAMEAS_FROM_DOMAIN, __DKIM_ALIGNS_1, __DKIM_ALIGNS_2, __ANY_URI, __URI_MAILTO, __HTTPS_URI, __URI_WITH_PATH, __URI_ENDS_IN_SLASH, __CP_URI_IN_BODY, __SUBJ_ALPHA_NEGATE, __INT_PROD_TV, __MULTIPLE_URI_TEXT, __URI_IN_BODY, __URI_NOT_IMG, [TRUNCATED], so=2010-03-03 19:42:08, dmn=2016-08-03-0138 Subject: Re: [TUHS] [tuhs] The Unix shell: a 50-year view X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: chet.ramey@case.edu Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" On 7/2/21 5:24 PM, Nelson H. F. Beebe wrote: > In this week's BSDNow.tv podcast, available at > > https://www.bsdnow.tv/409 > > there is a story about a new conference paper on the Unix shell. The > paper is available at > > Unix shell programming: the next 50 years > HotOS '21: Workshop on Hot Topics in Operating Systems, Ann > Arbor, Michigan, 1 June, 2021--3 June, 2021 > https://doi.org/10.1145/3458336.3465294 > > The tone is overall negative Perhaps, though they do say "The shell is a useful abstraction deserving of our attention despite its imperfections (Section 2)." and "The Unix shell hits a sweet spot between succinctness, expressive power, and performance." I participated in the accompanying panel. Everyone seems to hate the shell's quoting rules and word splitting, and those two things alone are sufficient to give the shell a bad rap, yet one thing that became clear is that people are trying to use the shell (or not) without understanding the underlying Unix abstractions that we take for granted (such as the file system). And what's worse: they don't want to and nobody is teaching them. -- ``The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.'' - Chaucer ``Ars longa, vita brevis'' - Hippocrates Chet Ramey, UTech, CWRU chet@case.edu http://tiswww.cwru.edu/~chet/