From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.6 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [50.116.15.146]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 556782213C for ; Thu, 9 May 2024 03:28:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2BD443322; Thu, 9 May 2024 11:28:09 +1000 (AEST) Received: from wfout2-smtp.messagingengine.com (wfout2-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.145]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 581B043321 for ; Thu, 9 May 2024 11:27:56 +1000 (AEST) Received: from compute7.internal (compute7.nyi.internal [10.202.2.48]) by mailfout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11E4A1C0012A; Wed, 8 May 2024 21:27:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute7.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 08 May 2024 21:27:55 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=serissa.com; h= cc:cc:content-type:content-type:date:date:from:from:in-reply-to :in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references:reply-to:subject :subject:to:to; s=fm2; t=1715218074; x=1715304474; bh=llYzERZz/u jGlNtwCL/P4rHs0wJXhhMiypwcpPvQDjk=; b=QcQNP7uI3e1dpZ80cQWWXjleyJ YxEe8iwld4smcpGYN/igH3RDpqPTkKQTrq4JU3Zj83cEQYbEbS3O2ELA/1ThJZDy bwr1UQBwg4aDY5cFadJhAqQqUm3iDjFcO4pVc/mpyW9MDokclcUif7WI7/1tJO4x TzJ3VRzmlMfRiIiGWTB08jZDEv0mkh3WB1N9h9rsYdMFWSjkdajOH6zA1yCMYHqo rYqaUTTXnbXmcsqAxHd77c6ZNuPgKJqy7x4PNiMjCr+vyQMQofMNJbCVKwMinpEH B5WRHgxBhr/LF6N6hxanM/HsTwLi7gSBFgelGAw0JnUtMeU/VZD0f0f4UoVg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:cc:content-type:content-type:date:date :feedback-id:feedback-id:from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:reply-to:subject:subject:to :to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s= fm3; t=1715218074; x=1715304474; bh=llYzERZz/ujGlNtwCL/P4rHs0wJX hhMiypwcpPvQDjk=; b=dVRXTnUF+jehfj1MLlKIBQKvBv8AdOxnsml+2qxoTOjB JK8PNvxVTrSL8TKrAAuwYoMI8PnvrYgYbbnfEaz9/UsqV0eEoAx+RL258HvlGBWT Q9/MU1pXe0gqSL02Zk1WpeG5wQSmCbjFJTw816k20BTSV2jxlh0+njFh4xndXLgt lBUcq+0+YtzKpXGOJoH8buPXc/L9s82vLMIs++or7J8f0XAZjkVdKwZv5F4S1gqk oNSC0BrYaUF6ZHpkiKn6HHR82gC7AycnAiW62R8P5d+YRaZ+wd+VSshqe7gUAzOA jekHlR6BYYFYi/cqVVRHlPupqrF+dQ0t4YSB0Juwew== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvledrvdefuddggeeiucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhephffktgggufffjgevvfhfofesrgdtmherhhdtjeenucfhrhhomhepnfgrfihr vghntggvucfuthgvfigrrhhtuceoshhtvgifrghrthesshgvrhhishhsrgdrtghomheqne cuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepfeevkeekhfegtdeugeehtdeijeevtddtheetheelieeuheei ffeiuedufeeivdeknecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilh hfrhhomhepshhtvgifrghrthesshgvrhhishhsrgdrtghomh X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: ibf61458d:Fastmail Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Wed, 8 May 2024 21:27:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Lawrence Stewart Message-Id: <24A2FC48-8720-49B3-BF85-E53C9B09B32A@serissa.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_B710E288-F2B6-40E5-8B35-4047AE6E6A16" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3774.500.171.1.1\)) Date: Wed, 8 May 2024 21:27:41 -0400 In-Reply-To: To: Clem Cole References: <18efd14f-4da6-4771-ad6a-901c6cb6105d@planet.nl> <57a37626-728c-4f34-b08b-a4f521f1db03@planet.nl> <517e03bf-09d2-9e5e-fe21-df17318d4080@bitsavers.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3774.500.171.1.1) Message-ID-Hash: XX4MDHKAKZCN36JLXUCDAF4SRLILR2M6 X-Message-ID-Hash: XX4MDHKAKZCN36JLXUCDAF4SRLILR2M6 X-MailFrom: stewart@serissa.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: Al Kossow , The Eunuchs Hysterical Society X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: On the uniqueness of DMR's C compiler List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --Apple-Mail=_B710E288-F2B6-40E5-8B35-4047AE6E6A16 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Regarding the Dec Research Modula-X compilers, I am fairly sure that = Modula-2 for the VAX was a WRL (Digital Western Research Lab) thing, = because it was used for the WRL CAD tool suite used to design the WRL = Titan and the SRC (Systems Research Center) Firefly machines. SRC did = the Modula-2-Plus compiler for the VAX, which added garbage collection. = The Firefly OS was Modula, but included an Ultrix system call set so it = could run Ultrix binaries. I may be wrong about this, but I think Wirth = then did Modula-3 and then Oberon. WRL and SRC never had any PDP-11=E2=80= =99s as far as I know. -L > On May 8, 2024, at 2:12=E2=80=AFPM, Clem Cole wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Wed, May 8, 2024 at 1:46=E2=80=AFPM Al Kossow > wrote: >> Thoth has been a white whale for me for decades. > Ditto. Although, I believe the late John Beety had his 'Thoth Thucks" = tee shirt for years. I believe Kelly Booth still does. >=20 > =20 >> AFAIK nothing has survived from it. > You can argue that V-Kernel and QNX are children of Thoth - but they = were both in a flavor of Waterloo C that did not think ever targeted the = PDP-11 [that might be a misunderstanding WRT Waterloo C].=20 >>=20 >> "Decus" (Conroy's) C (transliteration of the assembler Unix C) should = also be mentioned. > Hmmmm, it's a flavor of Dennis' compiler in disguise and was sort of = an end-around for the AT&T lawyers by taking the *.s files, and = converting them to MACRO11, and then > redoing the assembler code to use originally RT11 I/O and later RSX11. = That said, it had its own life and ran on the DEC OSses, not UNIX, so = it probably counts. > That said, I thought Paul was asking about different core compiler = implementations, and I would argue the DECUS/Conroy compiler is the DMR = compiler, while the list I offered was all different core = implementations. >=20 > I'm curious about Jon and Tom's MOD2 compiler. Other than Wirth's, = which targeted the 68000, Lilith, and VAX, I did not know of another for = the PDP-11. Any idea of its origin story? I would have expected it to = have derived from Wirth's Modula subsystem. FWIW: The DEC Mod-II and = Mod-III were new implementations from DEC WRL or SRC (I forget). They = targeted Alpha and I, maybe Vax. I'd have to ask someone like Larry = Stewart or Jeff Mogul who might know/remember, but I thought that the = font end to the DEC MOD2 compiler might have been partly based on Wirths = but rewritten and by the time of the MOD3 FE was a new one originally = written using the previous MOD2 compiler -- but I don't remember that = detail. --Apple-Mail=_B710E288-F2B6-40E5-8B35-4047AE6E6A16 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Regarding the = Dec Research Modula-X compilers, I am fairly sure that Modula-2 for the = VAX was a WRL (Digital Western Research Lab) thing, because it was used = for the WRL CAD tool suite used to design the WRL Titan and the SRC = (Systems Research Center) Firefly machines.  SRC did the = Modula-2-Plus compiler for the VAX, which added garbage collection. The = Firefly OS was Modula, but included an Ultrix system call set so it = could run Ultrix binaries.  I may be wrong about this, but I think = Wirth then did Modula-3 and then Oberon.  WRL and SRC never had any = PDP-11=E2=80=99s as far as I know.
-L


On May 8, 2024, at 2:12=E2=80=AFPM, Clem Cole = <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:



On Wed, May = 8, 2024 at 1:46=E2=80=AFPM Al Kossow <aek@bitsavers.org> = wrote:
Thoth has been a white whale for me = for decades.
Ditto.  Although, = I believe the late John Beety had his 'Thoth Thucks" tee shirt for = years.  I believe Kelly Booth still = does.

 
AFAIK nothing has survived from = it.
You can argue that = V-Kernel and QNX are children of Thoth - but they were both in a flavor = of Waterloo C that did not think ever targeted the PDP-11 [that might be = a misunderstanding WRT Waterloo C]. 

"Decus" (Conroy's) C (transliteration of the assembler Unix C) should = also be mentioned.
Hmmmm, it's a flavor of = Dennis' compiler in disguise and was sort of an end-around for the = AT&T lawyers by taking the *.s files, and converting them to = MACRO11, and then
redoing the assembler = code to use originally RT11 I/O and later RSX11.  That said, it had = its own life and ran on the DEC OSses, not UNIX, so it probably = counts.
That said, I thought Paul was asking about different core = compiler implementations, and I would argue the DECUS/Conroy compiler is = the DMR compiler, while the list I offered was all different core = implementations.

<= div>I'm curious about Jon = and Tom's MOD2 compiler.   Other than Wirth's, which targeted = the 68000, Lilith, and VAX, I did not know of another for the = PDP-11.  Any idea of its origin story? I would have expected it to = have derived from Wirth's Modula subsystem.  FWIW:  The DEC = Mod-II and Mod-III were new implementations from DEC WRL or SRC (I = forget).  They targeted Alpha and I, maybe Vax.  I'd have to = ask someone like Larry Stewart or Jeff Mogul who might know/remember, = but I thought that the font end to the DEC MOD2 compiler might have been = partly based on Wirths but rewritten and by the time of the MOD3 FE was = a new one originally written using the previous MOD2 compiler -- but I = don't remember that detail.

= --Apple-Mail=_B710E288-F2B6-40E5-8B35-4047AE6E6A16--