[TUHS] First CRT terminal on Unix?

[TUHS] First CRT terminal on Unix?

[Nigel Williams]

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I stumbled into a reddit post on Unix with the claim about early Unices only being accessed via printing terminals, and it suggested a question to me as to the first “glass teletype” or CRT terminal to be used with Unix. 

Given the DEC-centric nature of early Unix I would guess perhaps a VT05 or VT52 but I’m keen to know if anyone from those early years recollects what happened and when regarding Unix terminal access alternatives aside from the venerable 33KSR or 33ASR.

[TUHS] First CRT terminal on Unix?

[Robert Diamond]

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The first non-printing terminal I remember seeing at Bell Labs was the Tektronix 4014. The image (green phosphors) was “painted” on the screen and would remain until an erase function was executed. (I seem to remember that this action made a soft audible “pop” sound).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tektronix_4010

---
Robert Diamond
rob at robdiamond.com


> On Nov 22, 2017, at 5:43 AM, Nigel Williams <nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com> wrote:
> 
> I stumbled into a reddit post on Unix with the claim about early Unices only being accessed via printing terminals, and it suggested a question to me as to the first “glass teletype” or CRT terminal to be used with Unix. 
> 
> Given the DEC-centric nature of early Unix I would guess perhaps a VT05 or VT52 but I’m keen to know if anyone from those early years recollects what happened and when regarding Unix terminal access alternatives aside from the venerable 33KSR or 33ASR.
> 
> 
> 
> 

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[TUHS] First CRT terminal on Unix?

[Clem Cole]

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These are called DVST - Direct View Storage Tube devices - or a modified
slow persistence phosphor oscilloscope.   And yes the clear, function was
done by large voltage pulse (blinding flash).   They had a very high
resolution graphics and were (surprisingly) popular for a long time.  Tek
invented computer graphics.   Tektronix 'Plot 10' plotting package was de
rigeur for years and xterm still supports many of the functions.    But it
was funny how companies believe their own hype.

When we developed Magnolia in Tek Labs in 1979, we did a Raster Graphics
display and the Terminals Division poop-ed on it, because they were selling
so many 4014's at the time.   When RamTek did a check raster graphics
terminal and almost overnight the market for blinding green flashes went
away.  There were terminals lined up in hallways in Wilsonville that they
could not sell.

On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 7:22 AM, Robert Diamond <rob at robdiamond.com> wrote:

> The first non-printing terminal I remember seeing at Bell Labs was the
> Tektronix 4014. The image (green phosphors) was “painted” on the screen and
> would remain until an erase function was executed. (I seem to remember that
> this action made a soft audible “pop” sound).
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tektronix_4010
>
> ---
> Robert Diamond
> rob at robdiamond.com
>
>
> On Nov 22, 2017, at 5:43 AM, Nigel Williams <nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com>
> wrote:
>
> I stumbled into a reddit post on Unix with the claim about early Unices
> only being accessed via printing terminals, and it suggested a question to
> me as to the first “glass teletype” or CRT terminal to be used with Unix.
>
> Given the DEC-centric nature of early Unix I would guess perhaps a VT05 or
> VT52 but I’m keen to know if anyone from those early years recollects what
> happened and when regarding Unix terminal access alternatives aside from
> the venerable 33KSR or 33ASR.
>
>
>
>
>
>
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[TUHS] First CRT terminal on Unix?

[Clem Cole]

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s/check raster/cheap raster/      sigh....

On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 8:26 AM, Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:

> These are called DVST - Direct View Storage Tube devices - or a modified
> slow persistence phosphor oscilloscope.   And yes the clear, function was
> done by large voltage pulse (blinding flash).   They had a very high
> resolution graphics and were (surprisingly) popular for a long time.  Tek
> invented computer graphics.   Tektronix 'Plot 10' plotting package was de
> rigeur for years and xterm still supports many of the functions.    But it
> was funny how companies believe their own hype.
>
> When we developed Magnolia in Tek Labs in 1979, we did a Raster Graphics
> display and the Terminals Division poop-ed on it, because they were selling
> so many 4014's at the time.   When RamTek did a check raster graphics
> terminal and almost overnight the market for blinding green flashes went
> away.  There were terminals lined up in hallways in Wilsonville that they
> could not sell.
>
> On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 7:22 AM, Robert Diamond <rob at robdiamond.com>
> wrote:
>
>> The first non-printing terminal I remember seeing at Bell Labs was the
>> Tektronix 4014. The image (green phosphors) was “painted” on the screen and
>> would remain until an erase function was executed. (I seem to remember that
>> this action made a soft audible “pop” sound).
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tektronix_4010
>>
>> ---
>> Robert Diamond
>> rob at robdiamond.com
>>
>>
>> On Nov 22, 2017, at 5:43 AM, Nigel Williams <
>> nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com> wrote:
>>
>> I stumbled into a reddit post on Unix with the claim about early Unices
>> only being accessed via printing terminals, and it suggested a question to
>> me as to the first “glass teletype” or CRT terminal to be used with Unix.
>>
>> Given the DEC-centric nature of early Unix I would guess perhaps a VT05
>> or VT52 but I’m keen to know if anyone from those early years recollects
>> what happened and when regarding Unix terminal access alternatives aside
>> from the venerable 33KSR or 33ASR.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
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[TUHS] First CRT terminal on Unix?

[Ron Natalie]

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Don’t know, there was the “brain damaged” Hazeltine mode even in V6.     I suspect there were a lot of random things kicking around that got hooked up after the initial model 33 and 37 ttys.

 

I’ve found several early pictures, one of Ritchie, and another of Thompson (though Ritchie is in the background) sitting with what appear to be Tektronix 4014s.

 

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[TUHS] First CRT terminal on Unix?

[Random832]

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On Wed, Nov 22, 2017, at 05:43, Nigel Williams wrote:
> I stumbled into a reddit post on Unix with the claim about early Unices
> only being accessed via printing terminals, and it suggested a question
> to me as to the first “glass teletype” or CRT terminal to be used with
> Unix. 

While this isn't necessarily indicative of what was physically used
either as a dumb terminal or with specialized applications, the 1BSD
termcap predecessor at
http://www.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=1BSD/etc/ttycap may be
informative.

Of the 22 terminal descriptions listed, nine seem to be for CRT
terminals: Three without cursor-addressability (adm3, datamedia,
teleray) five with (adm3a, beehiveIIIm, fox, hazeltine, hp2645), and the
tek4014 (which was an advanced graphical terminal as others have
mentioned, but completely unsuited to vi). The ADM-3A is of course
famous as the most common terminal used at Berkeley, and the one vi was
designed for.

As far as I know (and I've gone looking for this specifically, oddly
enough, out of idle curiosity), no version of termcap/terminfo has
contained a description for the VT05.

[TUHS] First CRT terminal on Unix?

[Ben Greenfield]

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> On Nov 22, 2017, at 11:33 AM, Random832 <random832 at fastmail.com> wrote:
> 
> As far as I know (and I've gone looking for this specifically, oddly
> enough, out of idle curiosity), no version of termcap/terminfo has
> contained a description for the VT05.


For those who are reading about this as history and didn’t live it this experience this statement needs more background.

I will look up the VT05, but hope that you may add some to color as to this stands out.

Thanks,

Ben

[TUHS] First CRT terminal on Unix?

[Random832]

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On Wed, Nov 22, 2017, at 11:42, Ben Greenfield via TUHS wrote:
> > On Nov 22, 2017, at 11:33 AM, Random832 <random832 at fastmail.com> wrote:
> > As far as I know (and I've gone looking for this specifically, oddly
> > enough, out of idle curiosity), no version of termcap/terminfo has
> > contained a description for the VT05.
> 
> For those who are reading about this as history and didn’t live it this
> experience this statement needs more background.

Sorry, no help there, I'm reading it as history too. I've just looked
through a lot of the (at least publicly available) historical versions
of the termcap/terminfo stuff in particular, and I looked for VT05
descriptions in particular since it seemed odd to me that even the
modern ncurses terminfo doesn't contain a description for it when it
includes so many other DEC terminals.

[TUHS] First CRT terminal on Unix?

[Henry Bent]

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On 22 November 2017 at 11:42, Ben Greenfield via TUHS <tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org>
wrote:

>
>
> > On Nov 22, 2017, at 11:33 AM, Random832 <random832 at fastmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > As far as I know (and I've gone looking for this specifically, oddly
> > enough, out of idle curiosity), no version of termcap/terminfo has
> > contained a description for the VT05.
>
>
> For those who are reading about this as history and didn’t live it this
> experience this statement needs more background.
>
> I will look up the VT05, but hope that you may add some to color as to
> this stands out.
>

In short: the VT05 was DEC's first video terminal, from the early '70s, and
would have presumably been in use at some installations that used early
Unix.  My guess - and this is entirely a guess - is that it had been
entirely supplanted by the VT52 and friends by the time Unix gained
widespread popularity.

There is a pretty good overview of the VT05 at
https://vt100.net/dec/vt05.html and
http://terminals-wiki.org/wiki/index.php/DEC_VT05 has a plethora of
pictures.

I have no idea why there are no termcap/terminfo entries for the VT05.
stty in BSD as early as 2.79 understands "vt05" as a settings argument, but
it's not clear to me what you would use for $TERM.

-Henry
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[TUHS] First CRT terminal on Unix?

[Random832]

On Wed, Nov 22, 2017, at 12:55, Henry Bent wrote:
> In short: the VT05 was DEC's first video terminal, from the early
> '70s, and would have presumably been in use at some installations that
> used early Unix.  My guess - and this is entirely a guess - is that it
> had been entirely supplanted by the VT52 and friends by the time Unix
> gained widespread popularity.
>
> There is a pretty good overview of the VT05 at
> https://vt100.net/dec/vt05.html and
> http://terminals-wiki.org/wiki/index.php/DEC_VT05 has a plethora of
> pictures.
>
> I have no idea why there are no termcap/terminfo entries for the VT05.
> stty in BSD as early as 2.79 understands "vt05" as a settings
> argument, but it's not clear to me what you would use for $TERM.

Looking at other versions, stty vt05 appears as far back as V6 (it sets
the newline delay - needed because scrolling was slow on the VT05 - and
clears other delays). This is evidence that it was probably used some
places as a dumb terminal.

The VT05 itself was 72x20, all uppercase, and did in fact support cursor
addressing etc, though there's no evidence any Unix applications ever
took advantage of that. TECO apparently did, though.

[TUHS] First CRT terminal on Unix?

[Nigel Williams]

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On Thu, Nov 23, 2017 at 4:55 AM, Henry Bent <henry.r.bent at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 22 November 2017 at 11:42, Ben Greenfield via TUHS <tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org>
> wrote:
>> > On Nov 22, 2017, at 11:33 AM, Random832 <random832 at fastmail.com> wrote:
>> > As far as I know (and I've gone looking for this specifically, oddly
>> > enough, out of idle curiosity), no version of termcap/terminfo has
>> > contained a description for the VT05.

The VT05 needed a delay added on CR as it was slow to scroll the
screen buffer, so every logon would have required: stty cr3
I amused to see that stty cr3 still works on Linux but on my desktop
there is no visible effect on scrolling speed.

>> For those who are reading about this as history and didn’t live it this
>> experience this statement needs more background.
>>
>> I will look up the VT05, but hope that you may add some to color as to
>> this stands out.

I suspect the VT05 was not popular as it was slow, uppercase only, 72
characters x 20 lines, and not cursor addressable (much like Teletypes
of that time). I also think the VT05 never sold in significant
numbers, certainly to this day there are only a small number in the
hands of collectors (despite being much sought after).

> There is a pretty good overview of the VT05 at
> https://vt100.net/dec/vt05.html and

This caught my eye: "It is completely portable, weighing only 55
pounds...". The VT05 is a beast, it is so deep (Depth 76cm / 30
inches) and heavy, although one person could lift it, the size and
shape really make it a two person lift.

In searching for images on the Internet I'm not finding as many images
of DEC PDP-11 installations from the 1970s as I hoped, mostly the
usual DEC marketing photos. This suggests a todo item is to compile
photos of early Unix installations sequenced in time.

At my local university I recall the early CRT terminals connected to
Unix systems were: GTC GT-101, ADM 3a, VT100 [1] and Tek 40xx. The
first CRT as output displays (these arrived before the terminals) were
Matrox graphics card connected monitors.

[1] The DEC VT100 was rare as it was expensive at the time and the
usual reason anyone had one was it shipped as the console bundled with
a PDP-11.

[TUHS] First CRT terminal on Unix?

[Nigel Williams]

On Thu, Nov 23, 2017 at 6:40 AM, Nigel Williams
<nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com> wrote:
> I suspect the VT05 was not popular as it was slow, uppercase only, 72
> characters x 20 lines, and not cursor addressable (much like Teletypes
> of that time).

I am wrong, DEC VT05 was cursor addressable, it could even erase to end of line.

3.8 Direct Cursor Addressing (CAD)

https://vt100.net/docs/vt05-rm/chapter3.html#S3.8

Through the use of CAD (0168), the cursor can be directed to any one
of the 1440 character locations on the CRT screen using three
instructions. The CAD function is used to allow updating of displayed
data without retransmitting the complete page.

[TUHS] First CRT terminal on Unix?

[Angelo Papenhoff]

On 23/11/17, Nigel Williams wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 23, 2017 at 6:40 AM, Nigel Williams
> <nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com> wrote:
> > I suspect the VT05 was not popular as it was slow, uppercase only, 72
> > characters x 20 lines, and not cursor addressable (much like Teletypes
> > of that time).
> 
> I am wrong, DEC VT05 was cursor addressable, it could even erase to end of line.
> 
> 3.8 Direct Cursor Addressing (CAD)
> 
> https://vt100.net/docs/vt05-rm/chapter3.html#S3.8
> 
> Through the use of CAD (0168), the cursor can be directed to any one
> of the 1440 character locations on the CRT screen using three
> instructions. The CAD function is used to allow updating of displayed
> data without retransmitting the complete page.

I wrote a VT05 emulator some while ago: https://github.com/aap/vt05
It's certainly not perfect and probably has some bugs, but I somehow had
the urge to write it for no particular reason.
I would actually be interested in the newline delay the machine needs
because I didn't implement it. 

I hope this doesn't derail the discussion too much, but I would actually
like to know which teletypes were used at bell labs. What strikes me as
odd is that in UNIX lower case is the norm yet the ASR-33, which I would
assume was ubiquitous, does only to upper case and also doesn't do some
characters used by C, like {}. In this famous photo you see ASR-33s...so
were they really the main interface to early UNIX?
https://www.bell-labs.com/usr/dmr/www/kd14.jpg

aap

[TUHS] First CRT terminal on Unix?

[Clem Cole]

ASR-37 were used at the labs

On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 4:33 PM, Angelo Papenhoff <aap at papnet.eu> wrote:

> On 23/11/17, Nigel Williams wrote:
> > On Thu, Nov 23, 2017 at 6:40 AM, Nigel Williams
> > <nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com> wrote:
> > > I suspect the VT05 was not popular as it was slow, uppercase only, 72
> > > characters x 20 lines, and not cursor addressable (much like Teletypes
> > > of that time).
> >
> > I am wrong, DEC VT05 was cursor addressable, it could even erase to end
> of line.
> >
> > 3.8 Direct Cursor Addressing (CAD)
> >
> > https://vt100.net/docs/vt05-rm/chapter3.html#S3.8
> >
> > Through the use of CAD (0168), the cursor can be directed to any one
> > of the 1440 character locations on the CRT screen using three
> > instructions. The CAD function is used to allow updating of displayed
> > data without retransmitting the complete page.
>
> I wrote a VT05 emulator some while ago: https://github.com/aap/vt05
> It's certainly not perfect and probably has some bugs, but I somehow had
> the urge to write it for no particular reason.
> I would actually be interested in the newline delay the machine needs
> because I didn't implement it.
>
> I hope this doesn't derail the discussion too much, but I would actually
> like to know which teletypes were used at bell labs. What strikes me as
> odd is that in UNIX lower case is the norm yet the ASR-33, which I would
> assume was ubiquitous, does only to upper case and also doesn't do some
> characters used by C, like {}. In this famous photo you see ASR-33s...so
> were they really the main interface to early UNIX?
> https://www.bell-labs.com/usr/dmr/www/kd14.jpg
>
> aap
>
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[TUHS] First CRT terminal on Unix?

[Ron Natalie]

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My guess is the tty culture on UNIX revolved around the Model 37.     This had upper and lower case as well as having the concept of NEWLINE as both the shoot the paper up and move the type element back to the left side.    It ceratainly is ingrained into nroff, all those ESC-8/ESC-9 stuff that nroff puts out are direct commands to the Model 37.

I suspect that it was just the case that most PDP consoles were Model 33’s.   They were cheaper and pretty ubiquitous.   Even when I started with UNIX in 1977, most of our machines had Model 33 consoles even if they had CRTs or fancier printing terminals (LA36 or Model 37’s).

 

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[TUHS] First CRT terminal on Unix?

[Jon Steinhart]

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"Ron Natalie" writes:
> My guess is the tty culture on UNIX revolved around the Model 37.     This had
> upper and lower case as well as having the concept of NEWLINE as both the shoot
> the paper up and move the type element back to the left side.    It ceratainly
> is ingrained into nroff, all those ESC-8/ESC-9 stuff that nroff puts out are
> direct commands to the Model 37.
> 
> I suspect that it was just the case that most PDP consoles were Model 33’s.  
> They were cheaper and pretty ubiquitous.   Even when I started with UNIX in
> 1977, most of our machines had Model 33 consoles even if they had CRTs or
> fancier printing terminals (LA36 or Model 37’s).

I don't think that I agree with this.  I recall that there was a "public terminal
room" on maybe the 4th floor of building 2 that was filled with random terminals
of all types hooked to modems.  It's where I first came across glass ttys.  I know
that many of the UNIX machines had modems; I would borrow a Silent 700 or Execuport
so that I could work from home which annoyed my parents since I would tie up the
phone.  So while I don't recall doing so one could dial one up from one of the glass
ttys in the public terminal room.

Jon

[TUHS] First CRT terminal on Unix?

[Ron Natalie]

Ah, the Sinus 700.   I had forgotten about those .

 

[TUHS] First CRT terminal on Unix?

[Random832]

On Wed, Nov 22, 2017, at 16:33, Angelo Papenhoff wrote:
> I wrote a VT05 emulator some while ago: https://github.com/aap/vt05
> It's certainly not perfect and probably has some bugs, but I somehow had
> the urge to write it for no particular reason.
> I would actually be interested in the newline delay the machine needs
> because I didn't implement it. 

It turns out it was for any vertical movement, not just scrolling. And
the padding was required in the *middle* of the cursor addressing
sequence.

https://vt100.net/docs/vt05-rm/chapter2.html#S2.7 has the details.

[TUHS] First CRT terminal on Unix?

[Clem Cole]

Some thoughts...   In the late 60s, early 70s the number glass tty's being
made were actually fairly small at first.  They tended to be custom build
for specific uses, such as the airlines or wall street traders.   The idea
of the glass tty was not quite ready to be birthed.   Mostly because the
cost was high and the need was not quite yet there.  IIRC VT05 and the like
cost multiple thousands of dollars in late 1960/early 1970s money [FYI -
the dollartimes.com website says that's between $13K-$15K in todays money].

Remember that at the time the of the VT05, its follow on the VT52 and its
contemporary, the logic was built primarily with using MSI TTL; including
all the video logic to drive the display itself.   A dominate cost of the
terminal was the static ram chips.   A single 24x80 lines of 2000 chars was
$50-100 in OEM quantities.  The keyboard cost about the same.   The video
sub systems were black and white TV monitors.   You still need a case,
keyboard and the rest of the logic.     The $999 cost of the Lear Siegler
Kit that you assembled yourself was a steal.    DEC used an Intel 8080 in
the VT-100 a few years later, they paid approx a huge amount of money for
it, but they were able to make the logic board so much smaller.   IIRC the
original price for the VT-100 was $3500 in 1976 (they did sell a ton of the
them).      Shortly thereafter, most terminals had 8080's, 6502s, or Z80s
in them.    Motorola built the first video chips and it's interesting, how
many of the terminals all used same video chips but the processors were
more varied.   With the prices settling around $700-$1.5K mark by the early
1980s.
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[TUHS] First CRT terminal on Unix?

[Dave Horsfall]

On Wed, 22 Nov 2017, Random832 wrote:

> As far as I know (and I've gone looking for this specifically, oddly 
> enough, out of idle curiosity), no version of termcap/terminfo has 
> contained a description for the VT05.

You don't want to know about the VT-05.  Trust me on this.

(It was the console for the "larger" PDP-11/40s at UNSW, because they were 
supposed to be running RSX-11D; we sneaked in Unix V6 and it stayed.)

-- 
Dave Horsfall DTM (VK2KFU)  "Those who don't understand security will suffer."